61 replies to this topic

[codemonkey]

How much 10% phosphoric acid is too much? Seems like in order to hit my desired mash pH, I'm looking at 8ml/Gal, or ~50ml per 5 gallon batch (mash + sparge additions). Not really sure if this would be considered excessive or not, but it kinda feels like brute force and that maybe there's a more gentle way to get pale worts in the correct pH range.

Edited by codemonkey, 16 June 2014 - 09:37 AM.

[HVB]

Do you know your current water make-up?

[codemonkey]

Do you know your current water make-up?

Yeah, got the ward labs report:

pH 7.5Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 120Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.20Cations / Anions, me/L 1.7 / 1.9 ppmSodium, Na 12Potassium, K 2Calcium, Ca 16Magnesium, Mg 3Total Hardness, CaCO3 53Nitrate, NO3-N 0.6 (SAFE)Sulfate, SO4-S 3Chloride, Cl 22Carbonate, CO3 < 1Bicarbonate, HCO3 62Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 51Total Phosphorus, P 0.43Total Iron, Fe < 0.01

[denny]

How much 10% phosphoric acid is too much? Seems like in order to hit my desired mash pH, I'm looking at 8ml/Gal, or ~50ml per 5 gallon batch (mash + sparge additions). Not really sure if this would be considered excessive or not, but it kinda feels like brute force and that maybe there's a more gentle way to get pale worts in the correct pH range.

 

AFAIK, acid is the way to go, but damn, that seems like a lot.  Are you making a very light colored mash?

[codemonkey]

AFAIK, acid is the way to go, but damn, that seems like a lot.  Are you making a very light colored mash?

 

Yeah, 100% pale malt. No crystal or anything else that would help. I can add gypsum and chalk to increase hardness, but it seems I need to be careful with sulfate. 

[Big Nake]

Phosphoric is supposed to be 'flavor-neutral' when compared to lactic and with it being 10% as opposed to 88% (as lactic often is), I suppose you could need that much. You would need less than 2ml TOTAL if you used lactic. My bicarb is over double what yours is (138ppm) and 2ml in the mash water for a pale beer gets me to about 5.2 - 5.3 mash pH.

Edited by KenLenard, 16 June 2014 - 09:54 AM.

[codemonkey]

Phosphoric is supposed to be 'flavor-neutral' when compared to lactic and with it being 10% as opposed to 88% (as lactic often is), I suppose you could need that much. You would need less than 2ml TOTAL if you used lactic. My bicarb is over double what yours is (138ppm) and 2ml in the mash water for a pale beer gets me to about 5.2 - 5.3 mash pH.

Makes sense. I've never used either lactic or phosphoric, but was leaning towards the latter for the reason you mention. 

[HVB]

Makes sense. I've never used either lactic or phosphoric, but was leaning towards the latter for the reason you mention. 

I use lactic, granted it is in a small amount similar to the amount Ken posted, and I have never noticed it in the finial product. 

[Big Nake]

Makes sense. I've never used either lactic or phosphoric, but was leaning towards the latter for the reason you mention.

You would use less but there is a possible flavor contribution which some suggest has a curve to it. If you use the acid correctly, the flavor from the lactic can positively contribute to the overall flavor of the beer but overdoing it can adversely affect things. I did have a pale lager earlier this year and BNW somehow suggested quite a bit more acid than I needed. Mash pH dropped into the high 4s, clarity suffered and the beer had a bit of an acid tang that probably should not have been there. If you're still at an intersection as to which acid to use, I like lactic for the ease (and amount) of use.

[Mya]

have you considered acidulated malt?

[codemonkey]

have you considered acidulated malt?

Yeah, but I want to keep the purity of the grain bill. I thought about a long acid rest too, but I'm starting to change my mind towards lactic acid. A little would be ok I think.

Do you typically use the same acid in the sparge water as in the mash? Would it be ill advised to use phosphoric in the sparge and lactic in the mash?

[Big Nake]

Yeah, but I want to keep the purity of the grain bill. I thought about a long acid rest too, but I'm starting to change my mind towards lactic acid. A little would be ok I think.Do you typically use the same acid in the sparge water as in the mash? Would it be ill advised to use phosphoric in the sparge and lactic in the mash?

I don't see why you couldn't. I do add some lactic to the mash water (along with additions of CaCl and CaSO4) and then another addition of lactic to the sparge water to ensure I don't go over the magic ph 6.0 level when batch sparging. The only issue would be determining how much you would need of each since they're at different strengths.

[HVB]

The only issue would be determining how much you would need of each since they're at different strengths.

Should be easy enough with BnW. 

[neddles]

I've been down this exact road before. Read this thread. https://www.brews-br.../?hl=patersbier

 

The takeaway is that the 10% phosphoric acid route resulted in my most inaccurately predicted mash pH. As Martin suggested, I suspect it is a result of relying on someone in the supply chain to make an accurate dilution to 10% from a higher concentration. At the end of the day though it worked, but it was a lot of acid.

 

The case against acidulated malt is that it tends to vary a bit in strength resulting in less predictable mash pH. Will probably be fine in most cases but 88% lactic acid (which is my preference) will be more predictable and repeatable IME.

[Big Nake]

Should be easy enough with BnW.

Agreed.

I've been down this exact road before. Read this thread. https://www.brews-br.../?hl=patersbier The takeaway is that the 10% phosphoric acid route resulted in my most inaccurately predicted mash pH. As Martin suggested, I suspect it is a result of relying on someone in the supply chain to make an accurate dilution to 10% from a higher concentration. At the end of the day though it worked, but it was a lot of acid. The case against acidulated malt is that it tends to vary a bit in strength resulting in less predictable mash pH. Will probably be fine in most cases but 88% lactic acid (which is my preference) will be more predictable and repeatable IME.

Agreed. I have nothing against acid malt but to me, it's just another thing to keep around and I'm already going to have lactic acid on hand anyway. If the acid malt contributed a flavor that you just couldn't get anywhere else or I was trying to conform to the Rheinshalksjdlkjdiasjdlksjdasbot, that would be one thing. I would rather stick with the acid for 'repeatable' reasons listed by Ettels.

[MtnBrewer]

That seems like a lot but 10% phosphoric is pretty weak. Just for comparison, I need only a couple of mL to acidify my sparge water with 88% lactic.

[positiveContact]

I have an n=1 good experience with acid malt.  i wasn't relying on it to do a lot so maybe that was a key part of my success

[SchwanzBrewer]

I use it in my Kolsch since my water is hard. Seems to hit 5.2 on the nose every time so far.

 

My big question is, if I use aciduated malt in the mash, do I need to acidify the sparge or will there be enough left over to properly keep the PH in it's place? So far I've added lactic to the sparge water as a precaution.

[Big Nake]

I use it in my Kolsch since my water is hard. Seems to hit 5.2 on the nose every time so far. My big question is, if I use aciduated malt in the mash, do I need to acidify the sparge or will there be enough left over to properly keep the PH in it's place? So far I've added lactic to the sparge water as a precaution.

Somewhere there is data that says that x amount of acid malt will lower mash pH by x amount. I don't remember what it was but it was relatively small. It depends on how much you use to answer your question but the other part is that acid malt has a taste threshold as well. A buddy of mine used 4 ounces in 5 gallons of 5-point kolsch and then made another batch where he used 6 ounces and said he could actually taste the puckering acid with the 6 ounces so he backed off on subsequent batches. Just my 2¢.

[SchwanzBrewer]

I've been using 3.7%. What I just read from Kai says around 5% is the threshold. So I'm OK there, and the beer has never tasted lactic. Question is, what happens with the sparge? I'm guessing that I should acidify the sparge and that has been what I've been doing and anecdotally the beer has turned out great.