38 replies to this topic

[MtnBrewer]

For an equitable comparison, shouldn't the malting of the grains be included? After all, malted barley is not a raw agricultural product in the sense that grapes are.

Not in my opinion. Most vintners buy grapes; most brewers buy malt.

[stellarbrew]

Not in my opinion. Most vintners buy grapes; most brewers buy malt.

Yes, but my point is that brewers have the hardest part already done for them.

[MtnBrewer]

Yes, but my point is that brewers have the hardest part already done for them.

The premise of the OP's question was that the ingredients are provided and given that, which is harder.

[stellarbrew]

The premise of the OP's question was that the ingredients are provided and given that, which is harder.

Understood. I'm just suggesting an expanded view of the question. You can frame a question within whatever parameters you choose. But I don't think it is unreasonable for someone to point out how a reframing of that question would yield a different logical answer.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

The premise of the OP's question was that the ingredients are provided and given that, which is harder.

That was my intent yes - the reason for these parameters was brought about b/c people sometimes ask me which is harder for the home enthusiast to make. Since I only know about brewing I can't really answer the question. I always kind of assumed wine making was easier b/c I was falsely assuming that the fermentation aspect between wine and beer was pretty similar.

[japh]

From having tasted many people's first homebrewed AG and wine from grapes, I can say that AG is screwed up far less often. That would suggest that wine is more difficult.AG is all about process. If you have decent equipment, read the right books (and this awesome forum), then you can make a good AG beer. With wine, you just plain have to develop your palate. You have to make those decisions as to when you've achieved the taste you want from the particular step in the process you're at. It takes experience to make wine.

[Deerslyr]

That was my intent yes - the reason for these parameters was brought about b/c people sometimes ask me which is harder for the home enthusiast to make. Since I only know about brewing I can't really answer the question. I always kind of assumed wine making was easier b/c I was falsely assuming that the fermentation aspect between wine and beer was pretty similar.

Interesting reason for posting... and thanks for sharing what prompted it.I thought about wine as well, but abandoned the thought because (1) I like controlling the process, even though it allows more chance to screw up, and (2) I don't have the patience to wait that long for the finished product.I walked into my LHBS last week and the sales floor was packed with these large (appeared to be 15+ gallons) fermenters, getting ready for the wine season. It's a popular hobby in NorCal, with the availability of fresh grapes. So one thing to remember is that it tends to be a once a year hobby. How many batches of different styles can you brew of beer in a year? These are things that led me to brewing instead.

[davelew]

The one time I tried making wine (a riesling), it was a simple kit: dump juice into fermenter, add acid blend to balance pH, add yeast nutrient, add airlock. Take gravity readings every couple days, and add sulfite when the desired gravity was reached. Whip to remove carbonation, then bottle into suilfite-sanitized bottles.It seemed way too easy, especially compared to all grain brewing. The end result was kind of "meh", maybe the equivalent of an average $8 to $10 bottle of wine. I worry that I missed soemthing, that I could have made a better bottle of wine if I had known more, but most people I've talked to just say that my process was fine, the only chance for improvement would be better grape juice.I feel the fermenting grape juice is way easier than AG brewing. I also don't think you have enough control to make a really good product if you only ferment pre-packaged juice, and like people have said it's a lot harder to get bunches of high quality grapes than it is to get high quality malt.

[chuck_d]

I feel like this is one of those threads that actually wouldn't be wrong to cross-post. You should maybe throw up the poll in the WMC forum as well, I never read that forum and there are probably people over there that are my counterparts.

[stellarbrew]

That was my intent yes - the reason for these parameters was brought about b/c people sometimes ask me which is harder for the home enthusiast to make. Since I only know about brewing I can't really answer the question. I always kind of assumed wine making was easier b/c I was falsely assuming that the fermentation aspect between wine and beer was pretty similar.

It was a good question, as you posed it. I've also had the same question asked of me, and like you, I couldn't make the comparison because I have no experience making wine.

[Stout_fan]

The premise of the OP's question was that the ingredients are provided and given that, which is harder.

OK Mtn,If you are going to go that way you can by frozen grapes from https://www.brehmvineyards.com/.And my local grape wholesaler has ready to go pressed juice.The easiest wine I've made was a Gewürztraminer from pressed juice. Refrigerated and inoculated from the packer.Brix is controlled,as well as titration already performed and adjusted.Let it warm up to fermentation temp, wait, rack and you have wine.I insisted on doing a yeast starter and doing my own.Better than the $15 a bottle commercial stuff!

[davelew]

You can't compare AG with making wine from pre-package, controlled grape juice. That is like comparing AG with extract.

Steps in making beer:1. harvest barley2. malt barley3. adjust water chemistry4. mash barley5. add hops6. boil7. add yeast8. ferment9. bottleAG brewing is doing steps 3 through 9. I think we all agree on that. The "difficulty of making beer" does not include anything in the malting realm, even though certain beer companies like Anheuser-Busch do some of their own malting.Steps in making wine:1. harvest grapes2. de-stem grapes3. crush grapes4. balance acid5. add yeast6. ferment7. add sulfites8. de-gas9. bottleWhen we talk about winemaking, are we talking about steps 2 through 9, or steps 4 through 9, or steps 6 through 9? I've seen winemaking kits as simple as steps 6 through 9 (yeast and titration already done) and people here have talked about de-stemming and crushing their own grapes. Is de-stemming analagous to malting, or analagous to mashing?My opinion is that de-stemming is harder than AG brewing which is harder than acid-balancing a wine.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Steps in making beer:1. harvest barley2. malt barley3. adjust water chemistry4. mash barley5. add hops6. boil7. add yeast8. ferment9. bottleAG brewing is doing steps 3 through 9. I think we all agree on that. The "difficulty of making beer" does not include anything in the malting realm, even though certain beer companies like Anheuser-Busch do some of their own malting.Steps in making wine:1. harvest grapes2. de-stem grapes3. crush grapes4. balance acid5. add yeast6. ferment7. add sulfites8. de-gas9. bottleWhen we talk about winemaking, are we talking about steps 2 through 9, or steps 4 through 9, or steps 6 through 9? I've seen winemaking kits as simple as steps 6 through 9 (yeast and titration already done) and people here have talked about de-stemming and crushing their own grapes. Is de-stemming analagous to malting, or analagous to mashing?My opinion is that de-stemming is harder than AG brewing which is harder than acid-balancing a wine.

I'm not sure I'd count manual labor in the "hardness", sure de-stemming takes work but it doesn't take skill. It seems like it would be the equivalent to peeling potatoes for the chef.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I'm not sure I'd count manual labor in the "hardness", sure de-stemming takes work but it doesn't take skill. It seems like it would be the equivalent to peeling potatoes for the chef.

note that this is just my opinion - I can see how it could be counted in the "hardness". It's sort of like how I wouldn't say milling your own grain with a hand crank is necessarily "harder" than buying the grain pre-milled. Sure one is more work but it's not the kind of thing that one is likely to screw up.

[MtnBrewer]

I actually thought about bringing up that point but didn't want to get too bogged down in semantics. I interpreted "hard" to relate more to the probability of failure than physical labor. So figuring out what kind of oak to use or whether to do a malolactic fermentation might be examples of hard decisions because making the wrong one could be fatal to the wine even though it is not hard from a physical standpoint.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I actually thought about bringing up that point but didn't want to get too bogged down in semantics. I interpreted "hard" to relate more to the probability of failure than physical labor. So figuring out what kind of oak to use or whether to do a malolactic fermentation might be examples of hard decisions because making the wrong one could be fatal to the wine even though it is not hard from a physical standpoint.

Yeah - that's kind of what I was going for. What's interesting is that it seems to me there is a lot more to be gained from experienced brewing. It seems like with wine making if you had the right resources you could make all the right decisions the first time through and end up with a great product (correct me if I'm wrong here). With AG beer this is almost impossible with the average homebrewers equipment. I know it definitely took me a few times through using my setup to get a feel for getting the temperatures right, getting the volumes right, estimating the right water additions, etc.

[xd_haze]

crushing barley by hand is harder than destemming grapes by hand. all those little kernels.... smash... put in tun... smash... put in tun...I'm glad I have a mill!

What makes me think AG is harder, is the hundreds of various ingredients to make a recipe. Grape wine; however, doesn't seem to have as many combinations available as the grains and hops of AG.

[strangebrewer]

My oh my what a twisted web we have woven!Comparing the 2 is apples and oranges. They both have a learning curve that require a different set of tools, steps, timelines, and concerns. I would expect an AG brewer to say wine from grapes is harder and vice versa. Each person is going to have a set of tools, knowledge, and steps geared towards their process. On some points the 2 process's agree and some they are completely opposite. As far as mistakes go both processes have an equal number of forgivable and unforgivable factors.Wine without a doubt takes longer from start to finish but so would a 12-15%ABV beer to make a fair comparison. Neither one is more difficult than the other IMO. Wine does require more patience but if you have a good process and good fruit you will make good wine.

[Stout_fan]

...I'm glad I have a mill!

YOU HAVE A MILL!I've been using a little itty bitty ball pien hammer.Dang that's a lot of work!