38 replies to this topic

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

So what do you guys think? Let's assume you can buy malted grains/hops/yeast or grapes/yeast. What's more difficult to do right?

[Deerslyr]

I voted AG because the initial work seems to be more intense. With that being said however, I think that just as much, if not more, can go wrong during the fermentation of wine. Kind of a toss up, but I think more is involved with AG, and therefor more prone to screwing it up.

[MtnBrewer]

For the record I voted wine but I think the topic deserves some discussion. Good poll question, by the way. I think the answer really depends on what your standards are. If you're looking to make top quality wine or beer, then I definitely think the wine is harder. First of all, you have to get top quality fruit and that's really hard to do if you don't live close to a major wine growing region. Then crushing them is a lot of work. Then nurturing the wine as it ages and making critical decisions like how much/what kind of oak, malolactic, etc. requires a lot of babysitting. AG is a fair amount of work but once you get the beer in the fermenter, you're pretty much done except for a possible transfer to secondary and packaging. With wine, the work is just beginning when it goes into the fermenter.

[WallyG3]

I vote wine. While beer is quite involved before pitching, wine is quite a bit more involved after pitching. Wine doesn't have the nutrients in the must that beer has in the wort, and with wine you don't have the advantage of the sterilizing boil.The biggest indicator to me that wine may be more difficult is the fact that I've had a lot more bad wine than bad beer.

[BrewerGeorge]

Wine is about agriculture. Your only job as a vintner is not to screw up the fruit. Brewing is about process.

[Sidney Porter]

I think the art of wine making is in the farming getting the right soil, temp, type, etc.The processing pressing the grapes fermentation, should not be that hard.I assume that most pro wine makers have their own vineyard.

[MtnBrewer]

Wine is about agriculture. Your only job as a vintner is not to screw up the fruit. Brewing is about process.

This! However, not screwing up the fruit is a lot harder than most people think.

[MtnBrewer]

I assume that most pro wine makers have their own vineyard.

Estate wines are probably the exception, not the rule.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Good points all around so far...Mtn: I wouldn't count the quality of the grapes as I'm kind of assuming quality ingredients are a given here as anything else wouldn't really be fairothers: feel free to explain why wine is so hard once it has started fermenting b/c I really don't know! (that's why I didn't vote)

[Sidney Porter]

Mtn: I wouldn't count the quality of the grapes as I'm kind of assuming quality ingredients are a given here as anything else wouldn't really be fair

It is hard to get poor quality brewing ingredients, I think it is much harder to get good quality grapes.... I am looking at this on a professional scale rather than homebrew / homewine.... brewer are "required" to produce a consistent beer from batch to batch year to year, wine is not held to those standards and in some ways the differences are what makes it special.

[MtnBrewer]

Good points all around so far...Mtn: I wouldn't count the quality of the grapes as I'm kind of assuming quality ingredients are a given here as anything else wouldn't really be fair

I wasn't including getting the grapes but just pointing out that getting high quality fruit is usually a barrier for most people. Fair to middling grapes are still not that easy but the best fruit is spoken for by the wineries. Brewers can get exactly the same ingredients that Stone, Dogfish Head and Great Divide use. Let me know the next time you see Rutherford Bench Cabernet grapes for sale.

others: feel free to explain why wine is so hard once it has started fermenting b/c I really don't know! (that's why I didn't vote)

I think it's not that the work is hard but there are several decisions you have to make along the way that will dramatically affect the outcome. You have to monitor the progress of the wine and adjust things accordingly. Of course it also requires that you have a pretty solid idea of what you're trying to produce in the end.To sum up:It's easier to make mediocre wine than it is to make beer. It's harder to make excellent wine than beer. There's not much difference in effort between making mediocre beer and excellent beer and nearly all of that extra effort is up front.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

There's not much difference in effort between making mediocre beer and excellent beer and nearly all of that extra effort is up front.

This is an interesting point - the difference between okay beer and great beer very much has to do with the brewer b/c as you said good beer ingredients aren't that hard to come by.I'm still not completely clear on the wine end though - it's apparent that having top notch grapes makes HUGE difference based on what people have said so far. Is the skill level of person making the wine (after good grapes have been obtained) as important as with beer?

[Deerslyr]

Good points all around so far...Mtn: I wouldn't count the quality of the grapes as I'm kind of assuming quality ingredients are a given here as anything else wouldn't really be fairothers: feel free to explain why wine is so hard once it has started fermenting b/c I really don't know! (that's why I didn't vote)

There is a tremendous amount of babysitting once the wine goes into the fermenter. And it takes a long time before drinkability. I have a buddy that makes 500 gallons of wine on an annual basis. As an aside, he makes 5 gallons of an IPA from extract. Yes, he picks his own grapes from a local vineyard and then presses them. But once it goes into the fermenter, he has a lot more babysitting to do than with his beer (And I think someone else really hit it on the head with that) than I do. But there is a lot of labor involved in an AG batch up front that my buddy doesn't have to worry about. I think the worry switches between beer brewers and vinters about the point the product goes in the fermenter. I worry less once I know I've pitched and the fermenter is bubbling. But if I was making wine, once it starts bubbling is when I would worry. I hope that makes sense. I know temperature control is a big thing for us, but beer is more forgiving than wine is. If you brew hot, then you will be exposing yourself to some pretty good headaches, but the beer may very well be fine. But you can ruin a batch of wine if you don't keep very careful control of your fermentation temps. My buddy actually built, what looks to be about a 5 foot by 8 foot room in his great room for storing and fermenting the wine. It has it's own AC unit. And even with that, he doesn't know until a lot later whether his efforts were worth it. Closest we come to is probably Barleywines and Old Ales. Stuff that needs a long aging. But I still think the AG process up front is harder.

[brewskee]

Wine takes 4 times as long. If you #### up with wine, you're just waiting for terribleness.

[brewskee]

Wine is about agriculture. Your only job as a vintner is not to screw up the fruit. Brewing is about process.

Or screw up the pressing, filtering, yeast addition, casks, aging time...Wine is as much work as AG, if not more...I believe with beer at least you can get stuff that is "drinkable". Wine shows no such mercy.

[passlaku]

If you get a chance check out the movie called "BottleShock." I thought it was a entertaining and gets into the whole process of making good wine and shows how the good vintners are mostly good farmers, first and foremost. I have always thought of good brewers being more like cooks than farmers.

[Stout_fan]

The hardest part in winemaking is destemming.Now if you are doing a bunch, they make power tools for this...LARGE power tools.But by hand a 14 gal batch (four flats-128 lbs) will take me 6 hours.That's a bunch of work, but it's brain dead work.Crushing is seconds. Getting to bed at 2AM is the bugger.Inoculation is a cinch. No temp control.Just push the cap down twice a day.If you have any cuts on your hands, the yeast will find it and remind you painfully as the little bastards try to ferment the sugar in your body. Yes, paper cuts included.After 3 weeks rack to secondary.Then you rack to tertiary for oaking and fining. And then bottle.Neither is easy, but there's a whole lot less calculation in winemaking. So I vote winemaking as easier.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Neither is easy, but there's a whole lot less calculation in winemaking. So I vote winemaking as easier.

this is about what's harder - not what's easier

[MtnBrewer]

Neither is easy, but there's a whole lot less calculation in winemaking. So I vote winemaking as easier.

To me, that would make it harder. You don't have any calculations to fall back on. You have to do it by the seat of your pants, which requires great experience.

[stellarbrew]

For an equitable comparison, shouldn't the malting of the grains be included? After all, malted barley is not a raw agricultural product in the sense that grapes are.