Not in my opinion. Most vintners buy grapes; most brewers buy malt.For an equitable comparison, shouldn't the malting of the grains be included? After all, malted barley is not a raw agricultural product in the sense that grapes are.
What's harder to make?
#21
Posted 18 August 2009 - 08:13 AM
#22
Posted 18 August 2009 - 08:15 AM
Yes, but my point is that brewers have the hardest part already done for them.Not in my opinion. Most vintners buy grapes; most brewers buy malt.
#23
Posted 18 August 2009 - 08:28 AM
The premise of the OP's question was that the ingredients are provided and given that, which is harder.Yes, but my point is that brewers have the hardest part already done for them.
#24
Posted 18 August 2009 - 08:57 AM
Understood. I'm just suggesting an expanded view of the question. You can frame a question within whatever parameters you choose. But I don't think it is unreasonable for someone to point out how a reframing of that question would yield a different logical answer.The premise of the OP's question was that the ingredients are provided and given that, which is harder.
#25
Posted 18 August 2009 - 09:01 AM
That was my intent yes - the reason for these parameters was brought about b/c people sometimes ask me which is harder for the home enthusiast to make. Since I only know about brewing I can't really answer the question. I always kind of assumed wine making was easier b/c I was falsely assuming that the fermentation aspect between wine and beer was pretty similar.The premise of the OP's question was that the ingredients are provided and given that, which is harder.
#26
Posted 18 August 2009 - 09:52 AM
#27
Posted 18 August 2009 - 10:23 AM
Interesting reason for posting... and thanks for sharing what prompted it.I thought about wine as well, but abandoned the thought because (1) I like controlling the process, even though it allows more chance to screw up, and (2) I don't have the patience to wait that long for the finished product.I walked into my LHBS last week and the sales floor was packed with these large (appeared to be 15+ gallons) fermenters, getting ready for the wine season. It's a popular hobby in NorCal, with the availability of fresh grapes. So one thing to remember is that it tends to be a once a year hobby. How many batches of different styles can you brew of beer in a year? These are things that led me to brewing instead.That was my intent yes - the reason for these parameters was brought about b/c people sometimes ask me which is harder for the home enthusiast to make. Since I only know about brewing I can't really answer the question. I always kind of assumed wine making was easier b/c I was falsely assuming that the fermentation aspect between wine and beer was pretty similar.
#28
Posted 18 August 2009 - 11:21 AM
#29
Posted 18 August 2009 - 12:14 PM
#30
Posted 18 August 2009 - 01:23 PM
It was a good question, as you posed it. I've also had the same question asked of me, and like you, I couldn't make the comparison because I have no experience making wine.That was my intent yes - the reason for these parameters was brought about b/c people sometimes ask me which is harder for the home enthusiast to make. Since I only know about brewing I can't really answer the question. I always kind of assumed wine making was easier b/c I was falsely assuming that the fermentation aspect between wine and beer was pretty similar.
#31
Posted 19 August 2009 - 05:56 AM
OK Mtn,If you are going to go that way you can by frozen grapes from https://www.brehmvineyards.com/.And my local grape wholesaler has ready to go pressed juice.The easiest wine I've made was a Gewürztraminer from pressed juice. Refrigerated and inoculated from the packer.Brix is controlled,as well as titration already performed and adjusted.Let it warm up to fermentation temp, wait, rack and you have wine.I insisted on doing a yeast starter and doing my own.Better than the $15 a bottle commercial stuff!The premise of the OP's question was that the ingredients are provided and given that, which is harder.
#32
Posted 19 August 2009 - 08:14 AM
Steps in making beer:1. harvest barley2. malt barley3. adjust water chemistry4. mash barley5. add hops6. boil7. add yeast8. ferment9. bottleAG brewing is doing steps 3 through 9. I think we all agree on that. The "difficulty of making beer" does not include anything in the malting realm, even though certain beer companies like Anheuser-Busch do some of their own malting.Steps in making wine:1. harvest grapes2. de-stem grapes3. crush grapes4. balance acid5. add yeast6. ferment7. add sulfites8. de-gas9. bottleWhen we talk about winemaking, are we talking about steps 2 through 9, or steps 4 through 9, or steps 6 through 9? I've seen winemaking kits as simple as steps 6 through 9 (yeast and titration already done) and people here have talked about de-stemming and crushing their own grapes. Is de-stemming analagous to malting, or analagous to mashing?My opinion is that de-stemming is harder than AG brewing which is harder than acid-balancing a wine.You can't compare AG with making wine from pre-package, controlled grape juice. That is like comparing AG with extract.
#33
Posted 19 August 2009 - 08:27 AM
I'm not sure I'd count manual labor in the "hardness", sure de-stemming takes work but it doesn't take skill. It seems like it would be the equivalent to peeling potatoes for the chef.Steps in making beer:1. harvest barley2. malt barley3. adjust water chemistry4. mash barley5. add hops6. boil7. add yeast8. ferment9. bottleAG brewing is doing steps 3 through 9. I think we all agree on that. The "difficulty of making beer" does not include anything in the malting realm, even though certain beer companies like Anheuser-Busch do some of their own malting.Steps in making wine:1. harvest grapes2. de-stem grapes3. crush grapes4. balance acid5. add yeast6. ferment7. add sulfites8. de-gas9. bottleWhen we talk about winemaking, are we talking about steps 2 through 9, or steps 4 through 9, or steps 6 through 9? I've seen winemaking kits as simple as steps 6 through 9 (yeast and titration already done) and people here have talked about de-stemming and crushing their own grapes. Is de-stemming analagous to malting, or analagous to mashing?My opinion is that de-stemming is harder than AG brewing which is harder than acid-balancing a wine.
#34
Posted 19 August 2009 - 08:33 AM
note that this is just my opinion - I can see how it could be counted in the "hardness". It's sort of like how I wouldn't say milling your own grain with a hand crank is necessarily "harder" than buying the grain pre-milled. Sure one is more work but it's not the kind of thing that one is likely to screw up.I'm not sure I'd count manual labor in the "hardness", sure de-stemming takes work but it doesn't take skill. It seems like it would be the equivalent to peeling potatoes for the chef.
#35
Posted 19 August 2009 - 09:19 AM
#36
Posted 19 August 2009 - 09:50 AM
Yeah - that's kind of what I was going for. What's interesting is that it seems to me there is a lot more to be gained from experienced brewing. It seems like with wine making if you had the right resources you could make all the right decisions the first time through and end up with a great product (correct me if I'm wrong here). With AG beer this is almost impossible with the average homebrewers equipment. I know it definitely took me a few times through using my setup to get a feel for getting the temperatures right, getting the volumes right, estimating the right water additions, etc.I actually thought about bringing up that point but didn't want to get too bogged down in semantics. I interpreted "hard" to relate more to the probability of failure than physical labor. So figuring out what kind of oak to use or whether to do a malolactic fermentation might be examples of hard decisions because making the wrong one could be fatal to the wine even though it is not hard from a physical standpoint.
#37
Posted 19 August 2009 - 12:23 PM
What makes me think AG is harder, is the hundreds of various ingredients to make a recipe. Grape wine; however, doesn't seem to have as many combinations available as the grains and hops of AG.
#38
Posted 19 August 2009 - 12:55 PM
#39
Posted 26 August 2009 - 10:03 AM
YOU HAVE A MILL!I've been using a little itty bitty ball pien hammer.Dang that's a lot of work!...I'm glad I have a mill!
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