32 replies to this topic

[MX1]

Well, with this last brew, the Coffee/Chocolate Porter, I had really low efficiency, just under 60% ;)I think that there were a few factors that contributed to this, the first being that the retailer crushed my grains. I have to order most of my malt off the internet, and this was the first time that they ever crushed them....Second, I was worried about maintaining mash temp, so I did not stir the grains, at all... I have been using a thicker mash, 1qt/lb, I think I will up this to 1.5-1.75qt/lb and just do a single batch sparge instead of 2 sparges.I hope this will allow for better conversion and provide a higher quality wort, since more of it will be first running's.I usually get about 70-73% with my crush and the thicker mash.any ideas are welcomedTim

[Brewmasters Warehouse]

I think that having a thinner mash would help your efficency out some, but I would stick to doing double batch sparging. Just sparge with less water each time. I only stir 3 times when I mash. Once when I am doughing in to avoid dough balls. Once each time I sparge. I think stirring after pouring in the sparge water is very important. Just stir for a minute or two and then drain.Hope this helps.Ed

[denny]

I find so little increase in efficiency by doing a second sparge that it's not worth the time and effort to me. Look at your crush first and foremost. If you didn't stir well when you added your sparge water, your efficiency will take a significant hit. And you need to stir really well when you firt mash in so that you make sure ALL the grain is in contact with the water. If you're worried about losing heat, just heat your strike water a couple degrees hotter.

[Deerslyr]

Well, with this last brew, the Coffee/Chocolate Porter, I had really low efficiency, just under 60% ;)I think that there were a few factors that contributed to this, the first being that the retailer crushed my grains. I have to order most of my malt off the internet, and this was the first time that they ever crushed them....Second, I was worried about maintaining mash temp, so I did not stir the grains, at all... I have been using a thicker mash, 1qt/lb, I think I will up this to 1.5-1.75qt/lb and just do a single batch sparge instead of 2 sparges.I hope this will allow for better conversion and provide a higher quality wort, since more of it will be first running's.I usually get about 70-73% with my crush and the thicker mash.any ideas are welcomedTim

I agree with what Denny says about increasing your strike temp. I don't know what you are using for your water calculations, but a buddy gave me a simple Excel spreadsheet that gives me spot on numbers. It factors in grain temps, tun temps, etc. to help you maintain your mash. I can usually get in a good stir at the dough in stage without losing temp. If anything, it's slightly higher and it gives me time to make sure it's all integrated and by the time I close the lid, we are good.When I did batch sparging, I did 2 sparges. I felt more comfortable with it.If you want the spreadsheet, PM me your personal e-mail address and I'll send it to you. Does anyone know a way we can post data files on this site? Would be a lot easier.

[denny]

When I did batch sparging, I did 2 sparges. I felt more comfortable with it.

Why? I've never understood this.

[Deerslyr]

Why? I've never understood this.

Based on gavity readings, after the first sparge there was still a substantial amounts of sugars available. With a double sparge, my eff. was between 80 and 85%. I fly sparge now... using a pump and float switch. Much easier.

[denny]

Based on gavity readings, after the first sparge there was still a substantial amounts of sugars available. With a double sparge, my eff. was between 80 and 85%.

Well, I guess since I get that with a single sparge, you can see why I was wondering.

[Deerslyr]

Well, I guess since I get that with a single sparge, you can see why I was wondering.

I can certainly see that. I don't disagree with anyone who does single, double or even triple (yes they are out there) sparges. It's just a matter of how you were taught and what you believe your equipment can deliver. Since I went to fly sparge, I dropped in efficiency to 75%, but its very consistent and a lot less work for me. I guess the YMMV holds true for this, huh?

[Winkydowbrewing]

Heres a question for batch sparging (which is what I do). If I sparge and feel like my efficiency into the BK is suffering, could I heat the collected wort and then run it back through the mash tun, I assume this is like the idea of HERMS/RIMS recirculating...and I guess the main question, will you get a significant amount of left over sugar to make it worth while?

[3rd party JKor]

Heres a question for batch sparging (which is what I do). If I sparge and feel like my efficiency into the BK is suffering, could I heat the collected wort and then run it back through the mash tun, I assume this is like the idea of HERMS/RIMS recirculating...and I guess the main question, will you get a significant amount of left over sugar to make it worth while?

Probably wouldn't help and it might hurt. Sparging works on the phenomena of molecular diffusion. The driving force of diffusion is concentration gradient. Specific gravity is a form of concentration. If you run wort through a bed of sparged grain and the concentration of sugar in the wort is higher than the concentration of sugar in the grain, then sugars will go BACK into the grain. This is why the ideal sparging method is to continuously contact the grain with fresh water. This enables the greatest positive concentration gradient at all times during the sparge.

[Deerslyr]

Probably wouldn't help and it might hurt. Sparging works on the phenomena of molecular diffusion. The driving force of diffusion is concentration gradient. Specific gravity is a form of concentration. If you run wort through a bed of sparged grain and the concentration of sugar in the wort is higher than the concentration of sugar in the grain, then sugars will go BACK into the grain. This is why the ideal sparging method is to continuously contact the grain with fresh water. This enables the greatest positive concentration gradient at all times during the sparge.

I think what you are saying is that water has a saturation point when it comes to sugars. I tends to max out (for our purposes) in the 1.055 range. This is the problem that is inherent with the Brutus 20 system (sorry Lonnie, but I think you and I discussed this on the "other" board). The few times that I brewed using a Brutus 20 type system where the wort was recirculated from the BK back onto the grain bed, the best I could do was mid 50s. Its a sugar saturation thing. That's why it's best to use heated water without sugars. What type of efficiencies are you getting with Batch spargings that you (and this is directed to Winkydow) would want to do this? Personally, I think most people rush batch sparging. When I did batch sparging, after putting in the sparge water, I would stir well to get good integration, close the lid of my tun and walk away for 15 minutes. This really helps to let the water get saturated with the sugars. And if you are immediately draining (or simply not giving enough time) this may be your problem.Denny, when you batch sparge, how long do you wait before draining the tun?

[3rd party JKor]

I think what you are saying is that water has a saturation point when it comes to sugars. I tends to max out (for our purposes) in the 1.055 range. This is the problem that is inherent with the Brutus 20 system (sorry Lonnie, but I think you and I discussed this on the "other" board). The few times that I brewed using a Brutus 20 type system where the wort was recirculated from the BK back onto the grain bed, the best I could do was mid 50s. Its a sugar saturation thing. That's why it's best to use heated water without sugars. What type of efficiencies are you getting with Batch spargings that you (and this is directed to Winkydow) would want to do this? Personally, I think most people rush batch sparging. When I did batch sparging, after putting in the sparge water, I would stir well to get good integration, close the lid of my tun and walk away for 15 minutes. This really helps to let the water get saturated with the sugars. And if you are immediately draining (or simply not giving enough time) this may be your problem.Denny, when you batch sparge, how long do you wait before draining the tun?

I think you're on the right track, but it's not a saturation issue. Clearly, the water can hold a lot more than 1.055, or people wouldn't be brewing barleywine, IIPA, RIS, etc. The issue is concentration. If the concentration of sugar in the liquid you are adding to the mash has a higher concentration than the free liquid in the grain, then there is no driving force for sugar to come out of the grain. In fact, it's the opposite, the driving force dictates that sugar will be pulled from the wort back into the grain.

[Winkydowbrewing]

Well about a year back my manifold was stolen out of my garage by some copper thief. I rebuilt the manifold just slightly different than I had before. My previous design was slotted copper pipe in an oval and 2 lines down the center. My new manifold is slotted copper, but I have removed the 2 center lines. I took into consideration the distance off the walls of my cooler and distancing of the pipes, but have a tough time getting to even 70% and I know the design of the manifold can do better than this. Id say my typical efficiency is around 60 give or take. I will say that I do tend to rush the batch sparge process, so perhaps I will try and slow that down a bit more. I have been adjusting my mill in more and more and am getting close to the point of flour. Im not upset about the end product, which is always good, but why waste materials if not needed. I think part of my problem is I am not as systematic in my approach as I should be. I lost the scientific thought process a long time ago and rather than changing 1 variable I change multiple things and compound minor issues that could probably be smoothed out if I just took better notes and slowed down a bit. I was more curious than anything though in regards to running the wort back through the grain.

[Deerslyr]

I think you're on the right track, but it's not a saturation issue. Clearly, the water can hold a lot more than 1.055, or people wouldn't be brewing barleywine, IIPA, RIS, etc. The issue is concentration. If the concentration of sugar in the liquid you are adding to the mash has a higher concentration than the free liquid in the grain, then there is no driving force for sugar to come out of the grain. In fact, it's the opposite, the driving force dictates that sugar will be pulled from the wort back into the grain.

But people brewing high gravity aren't recirculating the wort to obtain all the sugars. At a certain point fresh water is used, correct? And that is what helps draw the remaining sugars out of the tun. Practical experience tells me that its tough to recirculate the wort and get a good eff. with a high gravity brew. I'll have to check where Lonnie discussed this with me.

[MX1]

Well, this has turned into a great discussion.All of my AG batches have been double batch sparged here is they way i did it:1. Strike my 50qt cooler with water at approx 180-190f2. Let it cool to the strike temp for that batch3. Dough in. Stir like a mad man...4. Rest, most of the time I wold stir every 15 min or so, and loose a few Degrees over the hour5. Collect first runnings6. Add sparge water at temp to make 170f stir like crazy7. Wait 10 min, collect runoff8. See step 7.....That is how i did it using any where from 1 qt/gal to 1.25 qt/gal. Leaving more water for larger sparges.Most of how i do it I got from BobbyM's web site.I think with the next brew, I will crush my own grain #1, and #2 hit a middle ground with a thinner mash, mayby around 1.75 qt/gal and see if I can drop to a single sparge, and let it set longer...Tim

[3rd party JKor]

But people brewing high gravity aren't recirculating the wort to obtain all the sugars. At a certain point fresh water is used, correct? And that is what helps draw the remaining sugars out of the tun. Practical experience tells me that its tough to recirculate the wort and get a good eff. with a high gravity brew. I'll have to check where Lonnie discussed this with me.

Correct. Sugar only leaves the grain if the sugar concentration of the liquid surrounding it is lower than in the grain.This is what is defining whether or not you can extract more sugar from your mash: Fick's Law of Diffusion

[Deerslyr]

Well, this has turned into a great discussion.All of my AG batches have been double batch sparged here is they way i did it:1. Strike my 50qt cooler with water at approx 180-190f2. Let it cool to the strike temp for that batch3. Dough in. Stir like a mad man...4. Rest, most of the time I wold stir every 15 min or so, and loose a few Degrees over the hour5. Collect first runnings6. Add sparge water at temp to make 170f stir like crazy7. Wait 10 min, collect runoff8. See step 7.....That is how i did it using any where from 1 qt/gal to 1.25 qt/gal. Leaving more water for larger sparges.Most of how i do it I got from BobbyM's web site.I think with the next brew, I will crush my own grain #1, and #2 hit a middle ground with a thinner mash, mayby around 1.75 qt/gal and see if I can drop to a single sparge, and let it set longer...Tim

Your batch sparging process seems fine. If you are stirring and waiting 10 minutes, that's correct.I don't know that you need to go up to 1.75 per se... 1.4 to 1.5 would probably do it. Otherwise your mash will be very thin, unless you like more fermentables and drier beer (it's a preference thing, right?)I agree you should probably crush your own grains as well.Next time around, crush your grains and ramp up the ratio just a bit.

[denny]

I guess the YMMV holds true for this, huh?

Yep....just like everything about this hobby! The "right" way to do something is the way that you like best!

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Your batch sparging process seems fine. If you are stirring and waiting 10 minutes, that's correct.

I don't think waiting 10 mins is necessary. It's just rinsing at this point (not mashing) so why wait? Extreme stirring will definitely help though

[MakeMeHoppy]

I was actually thinking of changing my process to add an extra sparge step. Here is the thinking and I am interested in comments. My belief is that at the end of the processes my grains are wet with approximately 1 gallon of wort. If I did a no sparge method those wet grains would be soaked with say 1.050 wort leaving a lot of sugars behind. If I do my normal single sparge method the second runnings have a significantly lower gravity so I am leaving less sugars behind. If I add another batch sparge step my grains would be left with an even lower gravity work soaked in them. Does that make sense?Along a related topic I was going to ask if people notice a lower efficiency when making higher gravity beers. My thinking again is that I sparge to collect enough wort to make my starting volume usually 6-3/4 gallons. If I brew a higher gravity been and collect the same starting volume as a lower gravity beer wouldn't I be leaving more sugars behind and, therefore, have a lower efficiency?Next brew I plan on taking gravity readings after each sparge to try to answer my own question, but thought since it is related to this topic I'd see what you guys think.