31 replies to this topic

[MtnBrewer]

Once conversion is done, it is done, no?

Yes, but the definition of "done" is not constant. What you consider done might not be what I consider done.

[Genesee Ted]

So you are saying that once all of the starches are broken down into sugars, the enzymes continue to break the sugars down further? Not saying you are wrong, just curious. I have never seen any proof of this...

[MtnBrewer]

So you are saying that once all of the starches are broken down into sugars, the enzymes continue to break the sugars down further?

Breaking down all the starches would take a really long time. Passing an iodine test does not mean that conversion is 100% complete. If it did, we'd only need to mash for 15 - 20 minutes. If you want more complete conversion in the case of a beer you need to finish very dry, then it's going to take longer.

[Genesee Ted]

[davelew]

So you are saying that once all of the starches are broken down into sugars, the enzymes continue to break the sugars down further?

Not saying you are wrong, just curious. I have never seen any proof of this...

Beta amylase will break down starches quickly into very simple sugars, but it has two issues:
1) it has a half life of 15 minutes at mash temperatures
2) it leaves a "Y" wherever starch chains join, with three sugars on each leg of the "Y".
3) it can only act on the ends of starch chains

Alpha amylase produces simple sugars more slowly, because it cuts starches into large pieces, then cuts those pieces into smaller pieces, and eventually produces simple sugars. Alpha amylase:
1) has a half life of 45 minutes at mash temperatures
2) leaves a "Y" wherever starch chains are joined with only one sugar in each leg (really, just a trisacharide)
3) acts on the middle of starch chains to produce simpler sigars, but takes many actions to produce an actual simple sugar

Mashing for a long time favors the actions of alpha amylase, with it's longer half-life, over beta amylase. With a long mash, you end up with more simple sugars and a more fermentable wort with fewer of the 9-sugar chains that beta amylase leaves behind.

[Corbin]

Breaking down all the starches would take a really long time. Passing an iodine test does not mean that conversion is 100% complete. If it did, we'd only need to mash for 15 - 20 minutes. If you want more complete conversion in the case of a beer you need to finish very dry, then it's going to take longer.

I actually read almost this exact thing in How To Brew the other night. Basically said a 20 mash could pass the iodine test but that it wasn't truly complete.

[Genesee Ted]

This is great info. I don't know why I didn't know this. Perhaps read and forgot. Anyway, gotta love the board yo!

[SchwanzBrewer]

I have an award winning recipe for this from the guy who introduced me to homebrewing. I think there is a huge thread on it on the northern brewer forum too. I'll try and dig the recipe up.

[positiveContact]

I have an award winning recipe for this from the guy who introduced me to homebrewing. I think there is a huge thread on it on the northern brewer forum too. I'll try and dig the recipe up.

sweet - thanks!

[SchwanzBrewer]

Delirium Tremens reclone A ProMash Recipe Report BJCP Style and Style Guidelines ------------------------------- 18-C Strong Belgian Ale, Belgian Strong Golden Ale Min OG: 1.065 Max OG: 1.080 Min IBU: 25 Max IBU: 35 Min Clr: 4 Max Clr: 6 Color in SRM, Lovibond Recipe Specifics ---------------- Batch Size (Gal): 5.50 Wort Size (Gal): 5.50 Total Grain (Lbs): 13.50 Anticipated OG: 1.075 Plato: 18.13 Anticipated SRM: 3.5 Anticipated IBU: 26.3 Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 % Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes Pre-Boil Amounts ---------------- Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour Pre-Boil Wort Size: 6.47 Gal Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.064 SG 15.56 Plato Formulas Used ------------- Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used. Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points. Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis. Color Formula Used: Morey Hop IBU Formula Used: Rager Additional Utilization Used For Plug Hops: 2 % Additional Utilization Used For Pellet Hops: 10 % Grain/Extract/Sugar % Amount Name Origin Potential SRM ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 88.9 12.00 lbs. Pilsener Germany 1.038 2 11.1 1.50 lbs. Cane Sugar Generic 1.046 0 Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon. Hops Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1.50 oz. Czech Saaz Pellet 3.50 20.9 60 min. 0.50 oz. Styrian Goldings Pellet 5.25 5.3 30 min. Extras Amount Name Type Time -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 0.40 Oz Corriander Seed Spice 10 Min.(boil) 0.17 Oz Ginger Root Spice 10 Min.(boil) 0.13 Oz Grains of Paradise Spice 0 Days(boil) Yeast ----- Water Profile ------------- Profile: Profile known for: Calcium(Ca): 0.0 ppm Magnesium(Mg): 0.0 ppm Sodium(Na): 0.0 ppm Sulfate(SO4): 0.0 ppm Chloride(Cl): 0.0 ppm biCarbonate(HCO3): 0.0 ppm pH: 0.00 Mash Schedule ------------- Mash Name: DT Mash Sched Total Grain Lbs: 12.00 Total Water Qts: 10.08 - Before Additional Infusions Total Water Gal: 2.52 - Before Additional Infusions Tun Thermal Mass: 0.00 Grain Temp: 75.00 F Step Rest Start Stop Heat Infuse Infuse Infuse Step Name Time Time Temp Temp Type Temp Amount Ratio --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Protein Rest 5 15 131 130 Infuse 144 10.08 0.84 Beta Rest 5 30 144 142 Infuse 210 2.65 1.06 Alpha rest 5 30 158 156 Infuse 210 4.65 1.45 Total Water Qts: 17.38 - After Additional Infusions Total Water Gal: 4.35 - After Additional Infusions Total Mash Volume Gal: 5.31 - After Additional Infusions All temperature measurements are degrees Fahrenheit. All infusion amounts are in Quarts. All infusion ratios are Quarts/Lbs. Notes ----- Yeast: Recultured from a bottle of Delirium Tremens. GOP 10 min.

[MtnBrewer]

I have an award winning recipe for this from the guy who introduced me to homebrewing. I think there is a huge thread on it on the northern brewer forum too. I'll try and dig the recipe up.

Wow, I think I remember that thread. That was a long time ago...I haven't been on NB in years.

[SchwanzBrewer]

Wow, I think I remember that thread. That was a long time ago...I haven't been on NB in years.

It's from my buddy Joe (JoeF on Northern Brewer Forum) He hasn't brewed in a couple years now, which is a shame cause he's wicked smart and knows and understands all the chemical/biological interactions that go on in brewing (he's a pharmD), and makes fantastic beer.