35 replies to this topic

[strangebrewer]

Here's why I ask: First, a cider fermented to completion tends to be extremely tart. Second, wild yeasts often don't have very high alcohol tolerances. I wonder if your Laker Cider™ was at the alcohol limit of the yeast, with the additional sugar working like back-sweetening. If that's the case, you will get a VERY different product with Wyeast or other commercial yeasts added to your cider.

The final product and also vary greatly depending on the apples used. The tartness is usually a result of an apple with a higher acidity. Right now I have a wild ferment of Jonathan apple cider going and it doesn't have a pronounced tartness.Wild yeast can also vary greatly in their ability to ferment. Some will crap out at 4%ABV while some will keep on truckin through 18%. That's the thing when doing a wild ferment, you never know what you'll end up with.

[laker]

The cider I made in the barrel wasn't real sweet and it wasn't real tart , I guess it was somewhere in the middle . I've had other ciders from a barrel and some are almost sickening sweet ,they might have used more sugar or like you guys have mentioned it might have been the apples , the northern spy variety in my area is known for making good cider, and some guys like to wait for a good frost before they use them . I would like to make one batch using my old recipe with no yeast and one other using a wyeast and see how they turn out . How much pear juice to 5 gal. would I need to add to get see a difference in the sweetness that the pears leave because there is more sugar that don't ferment . Thanks again for the help .

[strangebrewer]

The cider I made in the barrel wasn't real sweet and it wasn't real tart , I guess it was somewhere in the middle . I've had other ciders from a barrel and some are almost sickening sweet ,they might have used more sugar or like you guys have mentioned it might have been the apples , the northern spy variety in my area is known for making good cider, and some guys like to wait for a good frost before they use them . I would like to make one batch using my old recipe with no yeast and one other using a wyeast and see how they turn out . How much pear juice to 5 gal. would I need to add to get see a difference in the sweetness that the pears leave because there is more sugar that don't ferment . Thanks again for the help .

Pear juice generally starts around 1.060 and will ferment out to 1.010. Those remaining 10 points are the sorbitol that the yeast cannot digest. Apple cider will ferment out to 1.000 so that makes the math pretty easy. Presuming a 5 gallon batch total you'll gain 2 gravity points for every gallon of apple juice you substitute with pear juice.

[laker]

I came up with a couple simple recipes , would you guys check them out and see if they will make a good cider , please give me your ideas of any changes. I'm using 5 gal. carboys and allowing 1 gal. for space. 3 1/2 gal fresh cider 1/2 gal. pear juice no yeast 2 cups white sugar 2 cups brown sugar The other recipe is exactly the same but includes an American lager wyeast , let me know if this will work . And if there to much the same .Or will the wyeast change things quite a bit.

[strangebrewer]

I came up with a couple simple recipes , would you guys check them out and see if they will make a good cider , please give me your ideas of any changes. I'm using 5 gal. carboys and allowing 1 gal. for space. 3 1/2 gal fresh cider 1/2 gal. pear juice no yeast 2 cups white sugar 2 cups brown sugar The other recipe is exactly the same but includes an American lager wyeast , let me know if this will work . And if there to much the same .Or will the wyeast change things quite a bit.

I have never tried to add just sugar to cider and ferment it out so I'll leave that bit to someone who has but personally I feel like it would make the cider a little to thin for my liking.I can tell you that you don't want to use a Lager yeast unless you have the ability to maintain a fermentation temp of 55*F. Even if you do I don't think a lager strain will get you much benefit over an ale strain. If you want a clean fermenting strain then go with wyeast 1056. If you want the yeast to add some character I'd opt towards an english strain for a cider personally. Either way the wild fermentation will come out very different.

[davelew]

The other recipe is exactly the same but includes an American lager wyeast , let me know if this will work . And if there to much the same .Or will the wyeast change things quite a bit.

Wyeast makes a cider yeast, 4766:https://www.wyeastla...etail.cfm?ID=62Otherwise, I'd recommend something like 1056 (neutral ale yeast) or a 4242 (Chablis wine yeast) or 1098 (English ale yeast) before a lager yeast.

[laker]

That lager yeast was on a recipe I saw somewhere , I think you guys are right I better stay with the # 4766 wyeast , what about my sugar amounts do they look like a good starting point ?

[EWW]

I would cut the brown sugar to 1 lb

[laker]

Ok , should I do 3 cups white and 1 brown or leave it at 2 white and 1 brown ?

[EWW]

It's really your choice. Personally I would do 2 lbs white and 1 lb brown

[laker]

OK , Thanks for all the help guys , I'm doing the 4766 wyeast , 2 pds white and 1 pd. brown , hope its drinkable when I get done with it!!! Seems like there is so much more to this than the old 45 pds to the barrel and let it roll !! But I think I'm hooked , now I want to try a batch of a good dark lager !! Watch out I'll probably have more questions !

[laker]

One more thing that I'm wondering about , which batch would tend to need more sugar the one with the wild yeast or the one with the wyeast , I just don't want this to be real dry or real sweet . More sugar should make more alcohol but does it make the finished cider more sweet also ?

[davelew]

One more thing that I'm wondering about , which batch would tend to need more sugar the one with the wild yeast or the one with the wyeast , I just don't want this to be real dry or real sweet . More sugar should make more alcohol but does it make the finished cider more sweet also ?

Adding sugar will not add any sweetness, until you get to the point where the yeast can't ferment any more sugar because there's enough alcohol to poison the yeast. At that point adding sugar will only add sweetness, and not add any alcohol.If you use wild yeast and don't add any nutrients, the alcohol tolerance of the yeast will usually be lower than if you add yeast and add nutrients.

[laker]

I thought maybe I was confusing sugar with raising the sweetness of the end product , but then I realized more sugar might just add more alcohol , I guess I am learning !! So why are some ciders so different with some so tart and some so sweet , is it all in the yeast or the apples ?

[davelew]

I thought maybe I was confusing sugar with raising the sweetness of the end product , but then I realized more sugar might just add more alcohol , I guess I am learning !! So why are some ciders so different with some so tart and some so sweet , is it all in the yeast or the apples ?

There are three ways to affect the sweetness of the final product. 1. The choice of apples can affect the acidity, which changes your perception of sweetness2. The technique used (i.e. malo-lactic fermentation to change acidity, keeving to change alcohol tolerance of yeast)3. The choice of yeast

[EWW]

4. Back sweetening with an unfermentable sugar*this post assumes you are naturally carbing-otherwise sorbate and sulphite and back sweeten with anything

Edited by EWW, 12 November 2010 - 08:26 PM.