44 replies to this topic

[gnef]

To the OP, how did you measure your salts? Did you measure by weight, or by volume? I always used a .1 gram scale when measuring out my salt additions. I brewed using RO water and creating my water profiles from scratch for about a year, and had good results. It has actually helped me understand the chemistry and pH much better.Also, what volumes of water are you working with? I was doing 10 gallon batches, so I was treating a significant amount of water, where a minor mistake wouldn't be too big of a problem.If you need to do a few extract batches, just so that you have some beer to drink on hand, then do what you need to do in order to keep going with the hobby. Keep beer flowing while you experiment with your water. This will reduce the pressure on you, and hopefully you will be able to craft your water profiles so that they will work for the beers you are making.Just to make sure, you are making different profiles for different styles of beer, right? I have different profiles I used depending on style (light color, pale, IPA, stout, etc.)What salts are you using? I found that I didn't really like using chalk, so I would create my profiles in a way that I could account for the calcium and carbonates from different salts. Same with table salt, you really only want a small amount if any. I always tried to find a different avenue to get my chlorides and sodium. I can post some of my profiles for you if you want.

[Tankard]

To the OP, how did you measure your salts? Did you measure by weight, or by volume? I always used a .1 gram scale when measuring out my salt additions. I brewed using RO water and creating my water profiles from scratch for about a year, and had good results. It has actually helped me understand the chemistry and pH much better.

I measure by weight. I have a jewelry scale that measures by 0.1 grams, and it came with a 100 gram calibration weight, so I'm sure it is fairly accurate. I agree, it has helped me to understand a lot about the science behind brewing.

Also, what volumes of water are you working with? I was doing 10 gallon batches, so I was treating a significant amount of water, where a minor mistake wouldn't be too big of a problem.

5 gallon batches. I add an addition to the mash water (~4 gallons or so) and one addition for the boil pot.

If you need to do a few extract batches, just so that you have some beer to drink on hand, then do what you need to do in order to keep going with the hobby. Keep beer flowing while you experiment with your water. This will reduce the pressure on you, and hopefully you will be able to craft your water profiles so that they will work for the beers you are making.

Will do.

Just to make sure, you are making different profiles for different styles of beer, right? I have different profiles I used depending on style (light color, pale, IPA, stout, etc.)

Yeah. Sometimes it can be hard to find a recommended water profile for certain beer styles, but so far I have been lucky to find answers to my questions.

What salts are you using? I found that I didn't really like using chalk, so I would create my profiles in a way that I could account for the calcium and carbonates from different salts. Same with table salt, you really only want a small amount if any. I always tried to find a different avenue to get my chlorides and sodium. I can post some of my profiles for you if you want.

I use chalk only if I want to increase my calcium without throwing off my sulfate-to-chloride ratio. Most of the time, I am using gypsum, calcium chloride, and epsom salt.

[MakeMeHoppy]

If you are questioning your water, is there someone in your area that doesn't have this problem that you can get water from? Even in a municipal district every customer does not have the same water. I have an iron problem that no one else in my development has for instance. Likewise, give your water to someone and see if they have the same problem. Maybe it is something else in your process and not the water itself.

[gnef]

What are you adding to the boil?When I was creating my water profiles, I always added it to my strike and sparge water, never to the boil kettle. I think kenlenard was adding some to the boil, and was also having issues.

[Tankard]

If you are questioning your water, is there someone in your area that doesn't have this problem that you can get water from? Even in a municipal district every customer does not have the same water. I have an iron problem that no one else in my development has for instance. Likewise, give your water to someone and see if they have the same problem. Maybe it is something else in your process and not the water itself.

Thanks for the tip. The water in my area is absolutely loaded with bicarbonates, so unless I am making a really dark beer, the water is useless unless I dilute with distilled/R.O.

[Tankard]

What are you adding to the boil?When I was creating my water profiles, I always added it to my strike and sparge water, never to the boil kettle. I think kenlenard was adding some to the boil, and was also having issues.

The sparge addition is usually added to the boilpot, not to the sparge water, because the grain will absorb a significant amount of those salts. When you add to the strike water, you are ensuring that the water is sufficient for starch conversion, and when you add to the boilpot, it ensures that the water will maintain the same profile. At least, that's how I understand it.I use ezwatercalculator.com's spreadsheet and follow the instructions.

[MtnBrewer]

Tankard what is your mash pH?

[Tankard]

Tankard what is your mash pH?

Never tested it directly. When I use the spreadsheet, I take the SRM of the beer I am planning to brew and make sure it falls within the pH range that the water profile creates. Maybe next time I will buy some of those little pH strips to test.

[MtnBrewer]

I think that would be a good idea. Otherwise you may be solving the wrong problem.What I would recommend is use gypsum to lower pH for hoppy beers and calcium chloride for non-hoppy beers. The only time I would add chalk is when you need to raise pH, which should be rare (only for very dark beers).

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Never tested it directly. When I use the spreadsheet, I take the SRM of the beer I am planning to brew and make sure it falls within the pH range that the water profile creates. Maybe next time I will buy some of those little pH strips to test.

get colophast. I have some of the cheap-o ones and they seem useless.

[gnef]

hmmmmmmm, that is interesting. I'm not sure how much I agree with it, but it is an interesting perspective. I guess it is a way of conserving your brewing salts.The way I always thought of my salt additions, were that the additions for the pH were the reasons for the flavor profile of that particular beer. For example: stouts require more carbonates because the grains are more acidic, so stouts could only be brewed in areas where the ground water was really hard. They didn't have to add carbonates to the boil, they were already there, even if the grains absorbed some of the ions.How do you sparge (batch/fly/hybrid)? the pH of the sparge itself can influence the extraction of flavors you may not like (astringency from tannins comes to mind). Can you be more specific about the off flavors you are experiencing? What kind of harshness? Can you compare it to anything so we can have a better idea of what may be going on.How are your fermentations? Do you aerate, pitch the right amount of yeast - and what kind of yeast are you using? Do you have any issues with efficiency or attenuation?

[Tankard]

The way I always thought of my salt additions, were that the additions for the pH were the reasons for the flavor profile of that particular beer. For example: stouts require more carbonates because the grains are more acidic, so stouts could only be brewed in areas where the ground water was really hard. They didn't have to add carbonates to the boil, they were already there, even if the grains absorbed some of the ions.

You're right, which is why stouts are typically a more forgiving beer to brew. Usually there are plenty of bicarbonates to spare in really hard water. When I'm brewing a lager or a light ale, however, the flaws show up more when the water is really soft. From my limited understanding of water chemistry, calcium, magnesium, chloride, and sulfates need to be at certain levels in order to convert starches to sugars during the mash, and for yeast to remain healthy during fermentation. When I'm brewing a very light beer, and some of the ions are lost in the grain, I add some back to maintain the desired profile for fermentation.

How do you sparge (batch/fly/hybrid)? the pH of the sparge itself can influence the extraction of flavors you may not like (astringency from tannins comes to mind). Can you be more specific about the off flavors you are experiencing? What kind of harshness? Can you compare it to anything so we can have a better idea of what may be going on.How are your fermentations? Do you aerate, pitch the right amount of yeast - and what kind of yeast are you using? Do you have any issues with efficiency or attenuation?

I usually do a double batch sparge, but I recently have been experimenting with thinner mashes (~1.75-2 qt/lb) so that I only have to do one sparge addition. It's just easier this way and even though I noticed a slight decrease in efficiency, I don't really mind. I used to get consistently over 80% and now I am closer to 75%. The harshness I am experiencing is a bitter, almost astringent "bite". I recently made a schwarzbier and it has the bitterness of a hoppy pale ale, without the hop taste. I didn't use much hops in this recipe at all. Combine this bite with an overly strong roasted flavor, and it makes for a pretty disappointing beer. I am currently fermenting a hefeweizen and it's only 8 days in. I'm going to give it a few more days to ferment out, but it seems to have a slight... something, in the aftertaste. It might just be green though. Otherwise, it tastes fine. It might be too soon to tell. I aerate with oxygen, and I always do at least a 1 liter starter. My efficiency is never really a problem, but attenuation can be. My schwarzbier was supposed to drop to 1.012 and it stopped at 1.018, which left a little residual sweetness that should not be there. My hefeweizen was supposed to be at 1.011, it stopped at 1.013-1.014. It might be the yeast with the hefeweizen, though (WLP380), and it might drop a few more points within the next week. Fermentations.... I usually ferment colder, so I don't get really aggressive fermentations. My hefeweizen was fermented at about 61-62 degrees, but it went to 59 for the first 18 hours or so, which made it get off to a slow start.

[MtnBrewer]

From my limited understanding of water chemistry, calcium, magnesium, chloride, and sulfates need to be at certain levels in order to convert starches to sugars during the mash, and for yeast to remain healthy during fermentation.

Not really. The main thing that matters is pH. pH is mostly a function of residual alkalinity, which is the relative amounts of carbonate and calcium. The more calcium, the lower the pH and the more carbonate, the higher the pH. Ideally pH should be in the range 5.2 - 5.5 at mash temperature. That's where the enzymes are most active. Some ions are helpful as a yeast nutrient (like magnesium) but only very small amounts are needed. The other ions affect the flavor of the beer. I'd go into it here but you can read the water FAQ and get a better feel for it.

[gnef]

Hmmmmmmmm, astringency could be from possible tannins, and I am pretty sure that can be due to pH issues. (I am not a water or pH guru, just trying to recall what I've read)Another thought - have you checked your thermometer? pH changes with temperature, and it could be possible that you would be at either extreme if you were at the right temperature, but you could be somewhat off, and having issues due to that. I know this is unlikely, but I am just throwing it out there. Also, if your sparge water is too hot, that can also extract tannins.Would you mind posting what salts and how much you added per gallon to the strike? Same with your boil additions? That way we can take a look at it to see if anything in particular could be causing your issues.

[McNuggets]

I've had a few not-so-great batches lately,

You suck.

[Tankard]

Hmmmmmmmm, astringency could be from possible tannins, and I am pretty sure that can be due to pH issues. (I am not a water or pH guru, just trying to recall what I've read)Another thought - have you checked your thermometer? pH changes with temperature, and it could be possible that you would be at either extreme if you were at the right temperature, but you could be somewhat off, and having issues due to that. I know this is unlikely, but I am just throwing it out there. Also, if your sparge water is too hot, that can also extract tannins.Would you mind posting what salts and how much you added per gallon to the strike? Same with your boil additions? That way we can take a look at it to see if anything in particular could be causing your issues.

I think my thermometer is close enough. It's a digital NSF thermometer that has the ability to calibrate. I calibrated it the day I brewed the hefeweizen in a cup full of ice water. Here are the salt additions from my last batch... it was a hefeweizen with an SRM of 3.4Starting Water (ppm): Ca: 0 Mg: 0 Na: 0 Cl: 0 SO4: 0 CaCO3: 0 Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 4 / 5.2 Dilution Rate: 0% Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle: CaCO3: 0.5 / 0.65 CaSO4: 1 / 1.3 CaCl2: 2.5 / 3.25 MgSO4: 1.6 / 2.08 NaHCO3: 0 / 0 NaCl: 0 / 0 HCL Acid: 0 / 0 Lactic Acid: 0 / 0 Mash Water / Total water (ppm): Ca: 73 / 73 Mg: 10 / 10 Na: 0 / 0 Cl: 80 / 80 SO4: 78 / 78 CaCO3: 16 / 16 RA (mash only): -42 (2 to 7 SRM) Cl to SO4 (total water): 1.02 (Balanced)

Edited by Tankard, 19 July 2010 - 10:18 PM.

[Tankard]

You suck.

Hiya, pal...

[McNuggets]

Fan-fugu-tastic. I might be able to hook you up with a good pH meter if you want to pay shipping.

[davelew]

Some ions are helpful as a yeast nutrient (like magnesium) but only very small amounts are needed. The other ions affect the flavor of the beer. I'd go into it here but you can read the water FAQ and get a better feel for it.

+1 on this.You can make good beer without adding salts to water, as long as your brewing water tastes good to start with.Water chemistry additions can move good beer to great beer, but if you have bad beer, the water chemistry is probably not your problem (unless you have tons of chlorines/chloramines or another type of bad tasting water to start with). I don't recommend people start messing with water chemistry until they have all the other aspects of all-grain brewing working for them.

[Steve Gruver]

I think if water chemistry is a problem, I would suggest that you try a partial mash or all LME batch to see if you can produce a drinkable beer that way. You might want to try brewing with Spring Water (not R/O water) and see if some of your harshness goes away.