44 replies to this topic

[Tankard]

I've had a few not-so-great batches lately, and I blame my lack of understanding when it comes to water chemistry. I've started building my own water profiles from distilled, but no matter how careful I am with the additions, the water never comes out the way I want it to. I'm often left with harsh bitterness in light beers that could be the result of pH problems in the mash. I've studied Palmer's writings on water chemistry, and I have a spreadsheet that helps bring water to where it needs to be for certain styles, but I'm doing something wrong. I miss the simplicity and consistency of my extract days. My best beers have been all grain, but I was making consistently good beer with extract. Maybe a few extract batches will get me back on my feet. What you say?

[Tankard]

Yeah, I should have mentioned that... when I did extract, I always did steeping grains + LME. If I go back, I might try adding the LME late into the boil to avoid getting a dark beer everytime, or switch to DME.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Extract only is not a good way to go. If you backslide, at least do partial mashes - steeping specialty grains.

technically there is a diff - partial mashes implies a non-trivial amount of fermentables are coming from the grains where steeping specialty grains is pretty much just color and flavor and not much in the way of conversion. but yeah - I'd at least one of these two.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

To answer the title question: no, I haven't gone back.

[mach5]

Yes, I've gone back. I find that extract beers are just as good as AG beers and are much simpler and less time consuming. I do AG brews when I have time. There is nothing wrong with extract brewing.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Yes, I've gone back. I find that extract beers are just as good as AG beers and are much simpler and less time consuming. I do AG brews when I have time. There is nothing wrong with extract brewing.

true - but AG is much cheaper

[MakeMeHoppy]

Yes I do an all extract hefeweisen. 6 lbs wheat DME, an oz of Fuggles at 60 and Wyeast 3068. I currently have the same recipe in a 4 gallon batch to try an out of style high gravity hefe to see how that comes out. I like all-grain but an occasional extract and grains batch is good to do when time is a concern.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Yes I do an all extract hefeweisen. 6 lbs wheat DME, an oz of Fuggles at 60 and Wyeast 3068. I currently have the same recipe in a 4 gallon batch to try an out of style high gravity hefe to see how that comes out. I like all-grain but an occasional extract and grains batch is good to do when time is a concern.

that's actually a great style for extract IMO. so if you were going to go extract for a batch that's a great choice.

[Beejus McReejus]

I did an extract batch a few months back for time savings. However, due to the increased expense of extract vs. buying grain in bulk, I think the extra time is worth it.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I did an extract batch a few months back for time savings. However, due to the increased expense of extract vs. buying grain in bulk, I think the extra time is worth it.

I also think that AG is just more fulfilling. With extract it seems kind of like making box brownies or something.

[MtnBrewer]

I also think that AG is just more fulfilling. With extract it seems kind of like making box brownies or something.

Very true. Also, I know that it's possible to make excellent extract beer but I've never done it so I stick with AG. There's the variety aspect too. There are certain styles you just can't make with extract.

[ncbeerbrewer]

Very true. Also, I know that it's possible to make excellent extract beer but I've never done it so I stick with AG. There's the variety aspect too. There are certain styles you just can't make with extract.

+1 Agreed. I also feel its a learning tool/stepping stone for understanding the brewing process. No problem if you never wanna progress beyond that its cool. I though have been AG now for 3 years and I have no interest or reason to go back to Extract, only if I am teaching someone new.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Also, get the best extract you possibly can. Some LME is as good as all grain (cause it is), just concentrated - like Alexander's. Other extract companies have been known to incorporate sugar additives instead of all grain.

yeah - I think I had a couple of batches of extract where I got some good LME and it made a big difference.

[davelew]

I've had a few not-so-great batches lately, and I blame my lack of understanding when it comes to water chemistry. I've started building my own water profiles from distilled, but no matter how careful I am with the additions, the water never comes out the way I want it to. I'm often left with harsh bitterness in light beers that could be the result of pH problems in the mash. I've studied Palmer's writings on water chemistry, and I have a spreadsheet that helps bring water to where it needs to be for certain styles, but I'm doing something wrong. I miss the simplicity and consistency of my extract days. My best beers have been all grain, but I was making consistently good beer with extract. Maybe a few extract batches will get me back on my feet. What you say?

Why not just do all-grain with spring water, and stop worrying about water chemistry? In a lot of cases, messing with water chemistry just makes the beer worse, it's hard to improve a beer through water chemistry.

[Tankard]

Why not just do all-grain with spring water, and stop worrying about water chemistry? In a lot of cases, messing with water chemistry just makes the beer worse, it's hard to improve a beer through water chemistry.

The problem is that not all spring waters are the same. Some are very soft while others, like Arrowhead, have almost as much bicarbonate as local tap water. If I tried brewing a pilsner or a hefeweizen with Arrowhead, I would probably be in a situation where my mash pH is all screwed up and I'll probably get off flavors. The same could be said for brewing a dark beer with very soft water. Maybe I could just buy some soft spring water and put in some 5.2. I don't know if it brings the calcium and other elements up to where they need to be, though.

[MtnBrewer]

Why not just do all-grain with spring water, and stop worrying about water chemistry? In a lot of cases, messing with water chemistry just makes the beer worse, it's hard to improve a beer through water chemistry.

This is a good point. I'd also add that it's hard to completely ruin one through water chemistry too. Rather than go off the deep end, why don't you check your mash pH and find out whether your water is a problem or not?

[lowendfrequency]

After 6 years of brewing I was forced to sell my setup when I moved. While I was building my brewery back up, I did extract batches for a while. I was doing full boils, extra light dry extract with some steeping of specialty grains. While I made pretty decent beer, it just wasn't up to my standards. I know and have heard all the arguments for extract, both positive and negative, and brewed my batches with absolutely no bias. Some batches like big malty super hoppy IPA's came out great, but milder beers didn't fare so well. For me the issue was attenuation. I like my beers dry. I just couldn't ferment anything down past 1.018 when working with extract. I'll never knock anyone for brewing extract and would gladly drink their beer... but I've made my choice and it's all-grain, all day.

[davelew]

If I tried brewing a pilsner or a hefeweizen with Arrowhead, I would probably be in a situation where my mash pH is all screwed up and I'll probably get off flavors.

If I had the choice between making a pilsner with hard water or making a pilsner with distilled water, I think I would pick the hard water. I've never been able to get the mix of salts right to get distilled water to taste good in a glass, so I haven't tried to make distilled water taste good in a beer. Others may be better with water chemistry than I am, but distilled water scares me because I have to take so much control. I usually use spring water, and add some ions to make hard water.

[MtnBrewer]

Dave, note that knowing whether your water is hard or not is pretty useless. All it says is that the water is not soft. Soft water, you know there isn't much in it. But if all you know is that your water is hard, you don't really know anything about it. Hard water can be great for pale ales (Burton) or it can be terrible for pale ales (London).

[davelew]

Dave, note that knowing whether your water is hard or not is pretty useless. All it says is that the water is not soft. Soft water, you know there isn't much in it. But if all you know is that your water is hard, you don't really know anything about it. Hard water can be great for pale ales (Burton) or it can be terrible for pale ales (London).

Yeah, I agree there are many different types of hard water. But using hard water without knowing anything about it gives me a chance at a good beer, and (based on my personal history) using distiled water with salts that I add myself gives me a 0% chance of a good beer.I guess what I was trying to say is that the OP is not alone. I've never had good results adding salts to distilled water, either. I've had good results from ignoring water chemistry (I often use calcium chloride/sulfate/carbonate addition to soft spring water these days, but I spent years ignoring water chemistry). Therefore, my advice is to ignore water chemistry and just brew with water that tastes good alone.