51 replies to this topic

[lowendfrequency]

Reading this, I can only conclude that my impatience is going to help prevent autolysis from being a problem. I'm like a little kid waiting for his birthday to come from the point of heating my strike water until my first pint.

The funny thing is, on the other end of the spectrum, we always tell beginners to be patient and not rack of their yeast cake too quickly so their beer will finish fully and the yeasties clean up after themselves. So, which is right? Seems that there is a sweet spot somewhere in between too long and not long enough. The only way I can think of to optimize this would be proper pitching rates and careful yeast handling. The idea is to have the yeast complete their task in as quick a time as possible (or appropriate for style) to lengthen that window of opportunity before autolysis starts to detectably affect your beer. On that note, I've never noticed it on any of my typical ferments (from 1-4 weeks in primary). It's only when I get lazy and "forget" about a batch for a couple months that it becomes an issue... and even then, we still drank the beer!

[BlKtRe]

Mtn

Greg autolyzed years ago.

[BlKtRe]

The funny thing is, on the other end of the spectrum, we always tell beginners to be patient and not rack of their yeast cake too quickly so their beer will finish fully and the yeasties clean up after themselves. So, which is right?

That is what a hydrometer and your taste buds are for. The yeasties would of been done long ago cleaning themselves up and reaching FG before autolysis kicks in. I also agree with the rest of your post.

[MyaCullen]

In the world of wine making we call it Sur Lie aging. By the fact that it has a much more suave and chic name it is not harmful at all and is in fact beneficial.I won't start on the subject of autolysis and brettanomyces

one reason i don't like chardonnay

[lowendfrequency]

one reason i don't like chardonnay

Same here, although I'm finally coming around. I always end up giving some poor taster/sommelier a speech about diacetyl and off-flavors

[MyaCullen]

Same here, although I'm finally coming around. I always end up giving some poor taster/sommelier a speech about diacetyl and off-flavors

not a fan of dry whites in general, but Chardonnay is low on my list

[MolBasser]

Autolysis starts showing up in Pale Ale (bottle conditioned beer with yeast) at about 2 months.By 3 months, it is very noticable, and by 6 months, our beer is out of date.In the fermentor, you have a TON more yeast. We, as all brewers at the pro level, take great pains to make sure that our beer is not sitting on a cake of flocculated yeast for any length of time. It is a quality issue.I HIGHLY recommend racking off of the primary cake before you go to diacetyl rest or to chilling ales. In fact, you are just adding issues if you don't, in my opinion.I find myself becoming a Cellar Nazi now in my attitude towards homebrewing. It is certainly an area that has been long shoved to the back of the line in favor of cool brewhouse techniques as far as I have read.MolBasser

[MyaCullen]

Autolysis starts showing up in Pale Ale (bottle conditioned beer with yeast) at about 2 months.By 3 months, it is very noticable, and by 6 months, our beer is out of date.In the fermentor, you have a TON more yeast. We, as all brewers at the pro level, take great pains to make sure that our beer is not sitting on a cake of flocculated yeast for any length of time. It is a quality issue.I HIGHLY recommend racking off of the primary cake before you go to diacetyl rest or to chilling ales. In fact, you are just adding issues if you don't, in my opinion.I find myself becoming a Cellar Nazi now in my attitude towards homebrewing. It is certainly an area that has been long shoved to the back of the line in favor of cool brewhouse techniques as far as I have read.MolBasser

Cellar NAzi?seriously man, it's ok, step away from the spectrometer (crack pipe)Home brewing is supposed tyo be fun man, not a stress freakout

[MolBasser]

Cellar NAzi?seriously man, it's ok, step away from the spectrometer (crack pipe)Home brewing is supposed tyo be fun man, not a stress freakout

I agree.However, it is fun to set up an awesome cellar that pumps out great beer.I think too many homebrewers focus on the brewhouse.My new mantra in homebrewing is thus:You can make excellent wort on a ghetto brewhouse,But you can't* make excellent beer in a bucket in the corner.*consistentlyMolBasser

Edited by MolBasser, 20 May 2010 - 10:45 PM.

[MyaCullen]

I agree.However, it is fun to set up an awesome cellar that pumps out great beer.I think too many homebrewers focus on the brewhouse.My new mantra in homebrewing is thus:You can make excellent wort on a ghetto brewhouse,But you can't* make excellent beer in a bucket in the corner.*consistentlyMolBasser

please expand on your definition of cellar as used herei tend to agree with your mantra

[MolBasser]

The "Cellar" is where chilled and pitched wort is delivered to from the brewhouse and where beer resides until it goes to packaging.MolBasser

[MyaCullen]

The "Cellar" is where chilled and pitched wort is delivered to from the brewhouse and where beer resides until it goes to packaging.MolBasser

I assume you are referring on average joe homebrewer level to a temp controlled environ?and what you are getting at is control of temerature variables at all times in the process, which is key to consistently producing excellent results.

[MolBasser]

I assume you are referring on average joe homebrewer level to a temp controlled environ?and what you are getting at is control of temerature variables at all times in the process, which is key to consistently producing excellent results.

Yes, this.Temperature control, fine accurate temperature control, is critical to making of good beer.Fancy RIMS does crap if your ferments are out of temp spec. And only a few degrees make a huge difference. I have seen it with my own eyes at the brewery. 2 degree temp diff in fermentation and very different flavor profiles.If I were advising a new homebrewer who wanted to step up their game, and they were asking about what fancy brewhouse to buy, I would smack them and tell them to build a good cellar first.MolBasser

[Calder]

I HIGHLY recommend racking off of the primary cake before you go to diacetyl rest or to chilling ales. In fact, you are just adding issues if you don't, in my opinion.

As far as I know I have never had a problem with diacetyl. I never do lagers, which may be part of the reason, and often at the end of fermentation I'll boost the temperature to try and get the last bit out of the yeast, essentially performing a diacetyl rest. But everything I have heard is that the rest should be done before racking off the primary cake so that you have a large quantity of yeast cells to clean up the beer. If you rack first, you have less yeast to complete the work. I would be interested in understanding the advantages of racking it off the cake first.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Autolysis starts showing up in Pale Ale (bottle conditioned beer with yeast) at about 2 months.By 3 months, it is very noticable, and by 6 months, our beer is out of date.In the fermentor, you have a TON more yeast. We, as all brewers at the pro level, take great pains to make sure that our beer is not sitting on a cake of flocculated yeast for any length of time. It is a quality issue.I HIGHLY recommend racking off of the primary cake before you go to diacetyl rest or to chilling ales. In fact, you are just adding issues if you don't, in my opinion.I find myself becoming a Cellar Nazi now in my attitude towards homebrewing. It is certainly an area that has been long shoved to the back of the line in favor of cool brewhouse techniques as far as I have read.MolBasser

As far as I know I have never had a problem with diacetyl. I never do lagers, which may be part of the reason, and often at the end of fermentation I'll boost the temperature to try and get the last bit out of the yeast, essentially performing a diacetyl rest. But everything I have heard is that the rest should be done before racking off the primary cake so that you have a large quantity of yeast cells to clean up the beer. If you rack first, you have less yeast to complete the work. I would be interested in understanding the advantages of racking it off the cake first.

I've also done all of my d-rests in primary and I think a lot of other people do too.

[BrewerGeorge]

I've always wondered whether some of our differences in experience have to do with applying commercial standards and practices to homebrew environments. I would contend that the two environments are diverse enough that some of their practices are not interchangeable. In this context, the things that commercial brewers deal with re: autolysis just may not apply at homebrew volumes. Indeed, many of us have experienced perfectly excellent beer while still violating commercial guidelines. (Not just 'good enough' beer, either, but excellent.)

[Jimmy James]

Autolysis, from a biological perspective, is literally the lysis (rupture) of a cell due to the lysosomes (the "stomach" organelle filled with digestive enzymes) emitting all their proteases and other digestive enzymes into the cell allowing them to dissolve the cell. This occurs when salt is added to live yeast, and is one way of making vegemite. Prolonged amounts of time in a toxic environment (ie. alcohol rich beer) will eventually also cause the lysosomes to rupture,

I can get behind that definition. In addition to the above, the yeast vacuole (stomach) can help respond to stress - so in fact it doesn't just always burst, but it can help yeast cells cope with a stressful environment. At some point though, if it does burst it is bad news for the cell like you pointed out.Like George I believe that homebrewers have different exposure to this kind of thing and it's not necessarily an issue. Practical experience tells me the autolysis isn't an issue for the beers I brew. I don't go leaving beer on yeast for ages if I don't have to, but I don't worry about them dying on me too much either. Yeast cakes or slurries kept in mason jars in the fridge are another issue. Like someone posted earlier, in that situation for some reason you will get cell death in a shorter timeframe and you can see it as the yeast go from white to black on you.

[strangebrewer]

I have a beer that has been in the same bucket in primary for the past 11 months. Autolysis never tasted so good .

[MtnBrewer]

I have a beer that has been in the same bucket in primary for the past 11 months. Autolysis never tasted so good .

Yes, but there's a half inch layer of mold growing on top of it. That changes the equation.

[CaptRon]

Yes, but there's a half inch layer of mold growing on top of it. That changes the equation.

lol, Sounds like it is kind of like ageing meat. You cut off the outside layer of ick to get to the aged meat yumminess. Really gross when you think about it.