39 replies to this topic

[earthtone]

Like I said before, I am cheap so I've been brewing a whole slew of beer that do just fine with US-05. This is my second lager after doing like 30 some ales. Lesson learned, I'm going to see how it goes here over the next couple days and get some yeast in ASAP. You don't think it would work to refrigerate the whole carboy just to make sure it's still fresh when I have the proper starter going? I have space in a fridge right now, might get me through the next two days without spoilage....

[ncbeerbrewer]

Like I said before, I am cheap so I've been brewing a whole slew of beer that do just fine with US-05. This is my second lager after doing like 30 some ales. Lesson learned, I'm going to see how it goes here over the next couple days and get some yeast in ASAP. You don't think it would work to refrigerate the whole carboy just to make sure it's still fresh when I have the proper starter going? I have space in a fridge right now, might get me through the next two days without spoilage....

ET. If you are commited to getting more yeast and making a starter to pitch into this beer then putting this in the fridge should be fine. If you want to see if this yeast will kick off then leave it warmer. I think at this point seeming that you underpitched it might be best to move to the fridge and toss in the yeast after you make a starter. I believe storing it cold will save the freshness and sanitation of this batch.

[Jimmy James]

Have you let it warm up again? Just curious, I think you let it warm up soon after pitching, but has it been at 45 since? I still think it's just too cold and that you might be surprised if you let it warm up to 53F for a couple days - maybe do that while you get your starter going and see what happens. If you see a krausen form you are likely good to go.

[denny]

I've gotta say I don't understand the "I didn't have time for a starter" thing I hear so often. Would you brew if you didn't have time to get malt or hops? What's the difference?

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I've gotta say I don't understand the "I didn't have time for a starter" thing I hear so often. Would you brew if you didn't have time to get malt or hops? What's the difference?

The difference is sometimes you can get by without a starter so people are tempted to be lazy. Getting malt and hops is easy, hello internet!disclaimer: I always make starters unless I'm using dry yeast.

[BlKtRe]

I've gotta say I don't understand the "I didn't have time for a starter" thing I hear so often. Would you brew if you didn't have time to get malt or hops? What's the difference?

My brew sessions are scheduled by my yeast. I make my starter with anticipation of a brew day about a week or so later. Canning starter wort just saves me time in making my starters and for steps. Ive even refined my canning day to take as little time as possible without cutting corners. For me, if I don't have a starter, I'm not wasting/risking my time and money on producing a inferior or problematic batch. You can only get lucky so many times.Dry yeast has helped people who just don't want or have time to make starters. Altho dry yeast has come a long way in the last few years, i still feel liquid gives a brewer more options and in some cases liquid seems to be a better quality choice.Not trying to beat you up ET, but if your not going to make starters, just stick with dry. And not making a starter for a Lager is something that has never even crossed my mind. Hopefully you will make a save, but not without quality suffering at this point.

[Breakpoint]

I had a similar experience with WL833. I brewed a Vienna that had a bit higher gravity then planned and my starter was smaller in size because I ran out of DME (canning starter wort is on the list of new projects). I knew I had viable yeast because the starter fermented out, but never really saw activity in the airlock and the few times I check for krausen, I didn't see much. I waited two weeks at 50F and checked my gravity to find out it had been fermented even without much signs. I don't know what to attribute this behavior to since this is only my second lager. Also, I used Fermcap S in the starter and I don't know if what little was in the starter and may have ended up in the fermenter caused the lack of krausen formation. I was fermenting in a plastic bucket and I've noticed that sometimes I don't see much airlock activity with these and I don't know why.Good luck.

[earthtone]

I've gotta say I don't understand the "I didn't have time for a starter" thing I hear so often. Would you brew if you didn't have time to get malt or hops? What's the difference?

The difference is I often find that in my schedule of being in the studio 14 hours a day 7 days a week when 4 free hours pop up for any reason I run to the brew store, run home and brew - I do AG in 3.5 hours from start to finish, including cleanup. I never know if I'm going to be able to even use a starter if I make it a day or week in advance and I rarely use liquid yeast because I am so broke and so short on time. I decided to make a lager this time, and have gotten away many times with ales under 1.050 OG so I decided to give it a shot. Lesson learned, thanks for the help folks - I won't be making a lager without a healthy starter from now on. But as this was kinda a one off I'll be brewing mostly ales again using trusty ol US-05 cheap and plentiful.Being an architecture student and loving to homebrew means I have to compromise - liquid yeasts with their general requirement for a starter, the added cost of the sugar source for said starter and the yeast itself means I don't use them much but I still like to try. Would I brew if I didn't have time to get malt or hops? No. I often don't have the time. And often I don't brew, which is obviously the worst possible outcome and as such I get myself into situations like this!!!Not all of us have bars/breweries in our houses or even have houses, or jobs to support this addiction or free time to do anything other than frantically try to get done what is required of me at school. Not brewing just isn't an option, so again here I am.BlkTre - I definitely understand, I am a total lager noob, this one got in the rotation when I happened to leave my thermometer in my porch and found it to sit at a perfect temp - I never consider lagers because I have no temp controlled fermentation. Didn't know I neeeeeeeeded a starter since I spoil myself with yeasts like US-05 and 1056 (I know some people hate em but not me)Oh BTW, on an entirely related note hahaha - got home tonight and I did let it warm up, and the yeast did take off, and now it's fermenting happily and I'm moving it back down to the cold.

[BlKtRe]

ET, your situation is perfectly understandable. Down the road when you have a schedule that permits you can try liquid yeast. But for now, your not going to go wrong using the dry and given your situation is an excellent choice. Btw, be careful going cold to fast on the lager by taking it back downstairs. I know you have no temp control but getting cold to fast can in a word shock the yeast and make them sluggish or shut down. Gradual steps are better. One rule i learned long ago is yeast love going from cold to warm, but struggle going warm to cold to quickly. Glad it picked up and you didnt give up on this batch.Let us know what happens!!

[Jimmy James]

Oh BTW, on an entirely related note hahaha - got home tonight and I did let it warm up, and the yeast did take off, and now it's fermenting happily and I'm moving it back down to the cold.

Awesome! I had a feeling this was going to happen since I've been down this same road.EDIT: If you want to stabilize it once it hits 50 or so (whatever the optimal fermentation temp is) you can always wrap a blanket around it to keep it from cooling too much if the ambient temp is lower.

[earthtone]

thanks Jimmy, I guess all the yeast just went dormant in the cold. The ambient temp (just checked) is 48 df, so it should be spot on as is - there was a bit of a lag in temp as it cooled back down as well.Airlock smells amazing!!

[Big Nake]

Glad it took off ET. I hope it comes out great... the great aroma from the airlock is a good sign. Cheers!

[denny]

My brew sessions are scheduled by my yeast. I make my starter with anticipation of a brew day about a week or so later.

Exactly the way I do it. For instance, I wanted to brew this weekend. Even though I've got 6-8 smack packs of yeast in the fridge, it's Wed. now and I haven't had time to make a starter, so I'm not brewing.

[Big Nake]

I've made low-to-medium gravity ales with swelled smack packs without issue. Almost all of my beers are in the 1.040 to 1.055 range and if the pack is fresh and swollen, I'll do it. Generally, I make a starter or I am reusing yeast that was just harvested the same day. I will also just use dry yeast if the opportunity comes up to brew with little notice. I would not make an ale with just the contents of a White Labs vial and I wouldn't make a lager without a starter (fresh, swollen Activator included). I recently made an amber ale with a very fresh, swollen Activator and with some pure O2, I got fast activity (fast enough to surprise me). I think it depends on the OG of the beer.

[Jimmy James]

Kinda OT now, but I agree with Ken except on one point - I make ales all the time with nothing more than White Labs vials. I use WLP001, 007, 029 and a few others reliably without making starters for 1.050 or lower beers. That being said, White Labs is local (San Diego) and I pick them up at a LHBS, so they have been stored cold and viability is assured. I think we've beaten the proverbial horse when it comes to making starters for lagers....

[Big Nake]

Kinda OT now, but I agree with Ken except on one point - I make ales all the time with nothing more than White Labs vials. I use WLP001, 007, 029 and a few others reliably without making starters for 1.050 or lower beers. That being said, White Labs is local (San Diego) and I pick them up at a LHBS, so they have been stored cold and viability is assured. I think we've beaten the proverbial horse when it comes to making starters for lagers....

I think my only concern here is the packaging not telling me that the yeast are viable. Could I make a decent low-to-medium gravity ale with just a White Labs vial? Possibly. But I like the Wyeast Activator telling me that I at least have active yeast that are ready to start reproducing. Being located close to the White Labs facility and being assured freshness, you have a uniquely good situation there. Cheers.

[Jimmy James]

No arguments here - the activator is a great widget - though my belief is you could have 10% viability and the pack would still swell up.

I think my only concern here is the packaging not telling me that the yeast are viable. Could I make a decent low-to-medium gravity ale with just a White Labs vial? Possibly. But I like the Wyeast Activator telling me that I at least have active yeast that are ready to start reproducing. Being located close to the White Labs facility and being assured freshness, you have a uniquely good situation there. Cheers.

[earthtone]

Exactly the way I do it. For instance, I wanted to brew this weekend. Even though I've got 6-8 smack packs of yeast in the fridge, it's Wed. now and I haven't had time to make a starter, so I'm not brewing.

I'd love to do it this way as I said, but unfortunately if I did I would never brew. Sometimes I think I have time, I go buy the hops and malt and get home and find out I have to go back to school and I don't get a chance to brew for another week. Since my life is so touch and go I brew when I can, and if an opportunity comes up not having a starter doesn't seem like much of an excuse not to brew - just means I'll make a session ale with dry yeast from now on

[Jimmy James]

I'd love to do it this way as I said, but unfortunately if I did I would never brew. Sometimes I think I have time, I go buy the hops and malt and get home and find out I have to go back to school and I don't get a chance to brew for another week. Since my life is so touch and go I brew when I can, and if an opportunity comes up not having a starter doesn't seem like much of an excuse not to brew - just means I'll make a session ale with dry yeast from now on

Next time you do a lager, here's an easy way to incorporate your starter into your brew day. Make an extra half-gallon of wort than you need for your fermenter. When your wort is cool put that extra half-gallon into a jug and pitch your pack/vial into it and aerate/stir. Then fill your fermenter, put in an airlock and put it wherever you are going to ferment to bring it down to 47F. Let the starter go overnight at room temp, then the next morning add the starter to your now cooled off wort. You just made a starter and spent zero extra time, plus for many strains you won't need a D-rest b/c you started fermentation cold. Let it warm as high as 53F during the course of fermentation and taste your FG sample to see if d-rest is needed, if not keg/bottle and you're done! works for me everytime - I don't get any off-flavors from the starter but if you are worried about that you could cold-crash and pitch the next night after brewing. At 47F and with good sanitation nothing is going to grow in your wort.

[Big Nake]

I just realized that the title of this thread would also work well when ET opens up his brewpub. You've heard of the Whiskey-A-Go-Go... Now it's the Lager-A-No-Go.JJ: That's great advice for those who are short on time or want to brew spontaneously. I don't know if you would get proper levels of yeast in that short time, but it's much better than pitching just the vial, Activator, etc. Cheers.