40 replies to this topic

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Some people (whose opinions I don't think are entirely misplaced) think they can tell the difference between force carbing and letting the yeast do the carbing. I don't think there is a difference. What says the board?

[HVB]

It has been a plan of mine to do a side by side keg both and use priming sugar in one and force the other. My feeling is that you will be able to tell the difference. This may be silly bit I think the bubble size is different between natural and forced. I am on a brewing hiatus for a while with the little on but plan on trying this once I get back in the saddle.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

It has been a plan of mine to do a side by side keg both and use priming sugar in one and force the other. My feeling is that you will be able to tell the difference. This may be silly bit I think the bubble size is different between natural and forced. I am on a brewing hiatus for a while with the little on but plan on trying this once I get back in the saddle.

bubble size? someone who understands the physics and/or chemistry of how this could be the case will have to explain it to me.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

also - no vote?

[siouxbrewer]

I'm guessing that CO2 is CO2, maybe my palette isn't developed enough to discern the difference. Mishandling of bottles/kegs that are naturally carbonated may cause some off flavors, but I think two beers under normal conditions and the same volumes, the carbonation/bubble size should be the same.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I'm guessing that CO2 is CO2, maybe my palette isn't developed enough to discern the difference. Mishandling of bottles/kegs that are naturally carbonated may cause some off flavors, but I think two beers under normal conditions and the same volumes, the carbonation/bubble size should be the same.

what kind of mishandling would hurt a naturally carbed keg that wouldn't hurt a force carbed keg?

[siouxbrewer]

what kind of mishandling would hurt a naturally carbed keg that wouldn't hurt a force carbed keg?

I was thinking of changes in temp during carbonation, I've had diacetyl bombs from kegs that went from warm to cool to warm etc that I don't think would have been there if it maintained a constant temp.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I was thinking of changes in temp during carbonation, I've had diacetyl bombs from kegs that went from warm to cool to warm etc that I don't think would have been there if it maintained a constant temp.

diacetyl just from the carbing? I didn't think the yeast would produce enough during this period...

[beerbaron]

https://www.scienced...6075207.htmThis article is about champagne but does offer some insight.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

https://www.scienced...31216075207.htmThis article is about champagne but does offer some insight.

it does but it doesn't seem to point to anything that would tell me that everything being equal there would be a difference between natural and force carbing. it seems like carbonation level and the makeup of the substance create the varying bubble sizes. am I reading the article wrong?

[siouxbrewer]

diacetyl just from the carbing? I didn't think the yeast would produce enough during this period...

I think as long as there is yeast in there it is possible for it to poop out off flavors, though it could be an isolated incident in my experience. I have never naturally carbed or bottled a beer, but I have noticed variance in bottled conditioned commercial beers and naturally carbed home brew.

[beerbaron]

"Based on his study, Liger-Belair says that other chemical components that are dispersed throughout champagne, including dissolved salts, carbohydrates, and minerals, play a bigger role than previously believed in the formation of its uniquely small bubbles. "I misread this. I thought he was saying that naturally carbonated wines had different makeups that influenced bubble size. I was reading it for what I wanted it to say. OOPS. I is still interesting though.

[stellarbrew]

I think CO2 is CO2, and I am very dubious of the claim that bubble size would be any different between force carbed and naturally carbed beer. I have, however, heard respected opinions that the sugar used in the natural carbonation, and the by-products from the small fermentation being trapped in the bottle will impart a distinguishable flavor profile to the beer. I can't support or oppose this point of view from any personal experience, but it certainly sounds reasonable to me.

Edited by stellarbrew, 22 December 2009 - 09:23 AM.

[siouxbrewer]

I'm interested in those who voted they can taste the difference. Is it a perceptive difference (carbonic acid) or is the difference a construct of the mind i.e. placebo effect? I guess I'm just naturally skeptical and probably biased since I have never naturally carbonated a beer and I think the taste is indiscernible from bottle conditioned examples.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I have, however, heard respected opinions that the sugar used in the natural carbonation, and the by-products from the small fermentation being trapped in the bottle will impart a distinguishable flavor profile to the beer. I can't support or oppose this point of view from any personal experience, but it certainly sounds reasonable to me.

This seems possible to me although I don't know if I have ever been able to taste it.

[MtnBrewer]

In theory, you shouldn't be able to tell the difference but a few years ago I did a side-by-side tasting of a commercial tripel, part of which had been force carbed in kegs and the rest bottled & naturally carbed. It was not a blind tasting (so therefore not scientifically valid) however every person that tasted both beers preferred the bottled version. It had more complexity and a creamier mouthfeel. I'm going to speculate that the lees in the bottle added some glycerin that improved the texture but who knows. My answer is that for the most part there is no difference but I think in some cases there can be.

[Thirsty]

I have, however, heard respected opinions that the sugar used in the natural carbonation, and the by-products from the small fermentation being trapped in the bottle will impart a distinguishable flavor profile to the beer.

I am a firm believer in this. With everything being equal and identical, take 2 kegs of uncarbed beer. The first gets only injection of CO2, (no flavor being added) done. You have a keg of beer with no flavor added, set that one aside. Keg 2- add priming sugar, ferment out for CO2 formulation. Yeast produces flavor- fact. Different priming sugars produce different flavors- fact. Different levels will produce more or less flavors- fact. Now you have same flavor as keg 1, plus at least some type of contributing flavor, and that is taking into consideration full fermentability of added sugars- if only 90-95% attenuated, there will be sugar still remaining in the finished beer, which also has flavor. That is a comparison with keg to keg, but in most situations it is a comparison of keg to bottle, which I feel only magnifies the situation plus introduces the possibility of adding oxidation as one of the bottle conditioned off flavors. I feel that pro brewers have the packaging abilities and factor in this flavor change, so their bottle conditioned beers are cleaner than our examples on the HB level. I have had some bottle conditioned with DME for a long while and done perfectly, where the results were much closer, but in general, I can pick out the bottlers from the keggers. As far as bubble size, CO2 is the same in both situations, but I think how the CO2 is released from solution plays a part on the rest of the beer's quality for head appearance. As far as the rising bubbles, they should be the same size.

[denny]

This subject was one of my first experiments years ago. Beers were primed with sugar, honey, corn sugar, DME, and I think something else I can't recall, as well as force carbed. All were allowed to sit for 2 months for the CO2 to be fully dissolved into the beer. In a blind tasting, not a single person was able to tell which was which, nor did anyone express a preference for one over another.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

This subject was one of my first experiments years ago. Beers were primed with sugar, honey, corn sugar, DME, and I think something else I can't recall, as well as force carbed. All were allowed to sit for 2 months for the CO2 to be fully dissolved into the beer. In a blind tasting, not a single person was able to tell which was which, nor did anyone express a preference for one over another.

what style of beer was it?

[denny]

what style of beer was it?

APA