89 replies to this topic

[gnef]

For those of you with only one set of equipment, I would highly recommend you look for deals on spares. If you keep your eye out on craigslist and the local restaurant supply places, I'm sure you can find good deals.For all my CO2 tanks, I've only paid 20-30 a piece for empty and beyond the certification. Airgas doesn't really care about the hydrotest, so it is only about another 20-25 for the swap, and you have a full tank. My regulators I only buy when they are a good deal, and now I probably have around 6-8 regulators, and a total of 10 CO2 tanks of ranging sizes (2x50#, 5x20#, 10#, 5#, 2.5%). One of the 50# tanks was given to me (thanks cheflamont!), the other I bought off craigslist for 20 dollars, and most of the 20# tanks I bought for 20-30 dollars, etc. If I bought them all at once, it would have been too much, but I've bought them gradually over the years to have spares and extra, just in case. I never want to run out of CO2, and I don't think I have to worry about it for a while now.I definitely age some beers for years. I also make wines, ciders, and meads that I age for years as well. I have certain things that I make on a yearly basis so I can do a vertical tasting in 5-10 years to see how they age, some with and some without oak. The oldest I have right now is a cyser that is over 3 years old now in the keg, lots of stuff 2 years old (barleywine, ciders, meads), and even more 1 year old. Each year I do more and more, which is also why I need so many kegs - I intend on aging much of this for years to come. I am currently using over 50 kegs.With that said, I purge each of my kegs before transferring to them now. I didn't always do this, which is one reason why I am concerned for some things that I have had for 2-3 years. I am always trying to improve my techniques, so this is something I have settled on doing.Like others have said, if your beer only lasts 2-3 months at the most, I don't think it is something to be too concerned with, but if you are planning on aging for years, it is definitely something to be careful with.

[stellarbrew]

As I read this thread, I can't help but think of that awesome video that was on Sierra Nevada's website, showing the large open fermentation vat of SN Bigfoot Barleywine going gangbusters. What I'm wondering is if the beer sits in those vats for any period of time after fermentation is complete and the yeast has dropped. If so, would you expect an oxidation issue to become apparent in a bottle of Bigfoot that has sat on the shelf for a year or two? After all, that is a huge amount of surface area interface between the beer and the air. Given that people are standing in the room breathing, I don't think the CO2 levels could be so high as ensure that the beer is protected from oxygen. Don't many Belgian breweries also do open fermentations?

Edited by stellarbrew, 18 December 2009 - 12:28 PM.

[MtnBrewer]

As I read this thread, I can't help but think of that awesome video that was on Sierra Nevada's website, showing the large open fermentation vat of SN Bigfoot Barleywine going gangbusters. What I'm wondering is if the beer sits in those vats for any period of time after fermentation is complete and the yeast has dropped. If so, would you expect an oxidation issue to become apparent in a bottle of Bigfoot that has sat on the shelf for a year or two? After all, that is a huge amount of surface area interface between the beer and the air. Given that people are standing in the room breathing, I don't think the CO2 levels could be so high as ensure that the beer is protected from oxygen. Don't many Belgian breweries also do open fermentations?

Yeah but there's no way oxidation can occur with all that hungry yeast in there.

[stellarbrew]

Yeah but there's no way oxidation can occur with all that hungry yeast in there.

I see your point. Do they rack the beer over to a closed secondary fermenter before the yeast have a chance to fall out?

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I see your point. Do they rack the beer over to a closed secondary fermenter before the yeast have a chance to fall out?

I would suspect so.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

For those of you with only one set of equipment, I would highly recommend you look for deals on spares. If you keep your eye out on craigslist and the local restaurant supply places, I'm sure you can find good deals.For all my CO2 tanks, I've only paid 20-30 a piece for empty and beyond the certification. Airgas doesn't really care about the hydrotest, so it is only about another 20-25 for the swap, and you have a full tank. My regulators I only buy when they are a good deal, and now I probably have around 6-8 regulators, and a total of 10 CO2 tanks of ranging sizes (2x50#, 5x20#, 10#, 5#, 2.5%). One of the 50# tanks was given to me (thanks cheflamont!), the other I bought off craigslist for 20 dollars, and most of the 20# tanks I bought for 20-30 dollars, etc. If I bought them all at once, it would have been too much, but I've bought them gradually over the years to have spares and extra, just in case. I never want to run out of CO2, and I don't think I have to worry about it for a while now.

A good point - I'll have to keep my ojos open. I would like to be able to carb stuff prior to it getting close to serving time...

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

A good point - I'll have to keep my ojos open. I would like to be able to carb stuff prior to it getting close to serving time...

...plus I could join the oxidation nazis and not expose my wort to dangerous oxygen

[Big Nake]

...plus I could join the oxidation nazis and not expose my wort to dangerous oxygen

Nice, Zym.Again, this was meant to be a discussion about who does it, who does not and what effect there could be. This was not meant to be a "I'm lazy and who's with me?" kind of thread. You guys know that I look into all subjects of beer no matter how big or small. I look into water chemistry, primary fermentation temps, the proper way to harvest, store and reuse yeast, oxygenation techniques and all of that. This just happens to be one of those areas where I either didn't get the memo or I just didn't look into it because I didn't have a reason to search for the cause of a problem because there wasn't a problem in the first place. I'm also a fan of doing things to ensure the best beer possible, but I generally draw the line on areas that have a gray area. This does not seem to be a cornerstone issue where you absolutely cannot make good beeer without purging kegs so it was more of an off-the-map thing to me. Next time I rack a beer to a keg, I'll purge it first and see if I notice anything.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Nice, Zym.Again, this was meant to be a discussion about who does it, who does not and what effect there could be. This was not meant to be a "I'm lazy and who's with me?" kind of thread. You guys know that I look into all subjects of beer no matter how big or small. I look into water chemistry, primary fermentation temps, the proper way to harvest, store and reuse yeast, oxygenation techniques and all of that. This just happens to be one of those areas where I either didn't get the memo or I just didn't look into it because I didn't have a reason to search for the cause of a problem because there wasn't a problem in the first place. I'm also a fan of doing things to ensure the best beer possible, but I generally draw the line on areas that have a gray area. This does not seem to be a cornerstone issue where you absolutely cannot make good beeer without purging kegs so it was more of an off-the-map thing to me. Next time I rack a beer to a keg, I'll purge it first and see if I notice anything.

first off I meant to say beer not wort :Psecond off if you don't notice a problem now I don't know how you are going to see a difference

[Thirsty]

second off if you don't notice a problem now I don't know how you are going to see a difference

I am not saying that Ken has oxidation in his beers, as a matter of fact over the years of his posts and seeing his infatuation (as many of us share) he is already producing world class examples of beer. I urge that if he does this new practice to try aging some of the old stock, and comparing it to the new stock, it may take 6-8 months to notice oxidation in some examples, but that is really the only way to know if it is present. I also want to note that some levels of oxidation are not as obvious to all, and may just overall be a moot point. When I took the BJCP exam, the first beer we had to evaluate was a Bitberger German pils. I thought it was a spot on fantastic example, I scored it 43 or 44, cant quite remember. The exam proctor told us afterwards when we turned in the exam and recapped in discussion, that he doctored our examples by blending it with one of his own 15 year old cellared bo pils to try and give it oxidation. Not one of us examinees detected it, and out of 4 other assitant proctors (whose job it is to evaluate the same beers so the national graders have a standard to grade by) only one detected it- he happened to be a master judge. Sometimes it just isnt obvious, but may actually be there. Its all a matter of who knows it. If I know its there for my beers, it would drive me [mod edit] bonkers. Except for styles that may benefit from it. I hope my old ale in 2 years has some sherry/port/vinous character derived from oxidation- that will be a good thing!

[Big Nake]

I am not saying that Ken has oxidation in his beers, as a matter of fact over the years of his posts and seeing his infatuation (as many of us share) he is already producing world class examples of beer. I urge that if he does this new practice to try aging some of the old stock, and comparing it to the new stock, it may take 6-8 months to notice oxidation in some examples, but that is really the only way to know if it is present. I also want to note that some levels of oxidation are not as obvious to all, and may just overall be a moot point. When I took the BJCP exam, the first beer we had to evaluate was a Bitberger German pils. I thought it was a spot on fantastic example, I scored it 43 or 44, cant quite remember. The exam proctor told us afterwards when we turned in the exam and recapped in discussion, that he doctored our examples by blending it with one of his own 15 year old cellared bo pils to try and give it oxidation. Not one of us examinees detected it, and out of 4 other assitant proctors (whose job it is to evaluate the same beers so the national graders have a standard to grade by) only one detected it- he happened to be a master judge. Sometimes it just isnt obvious, but may actually be there. Its all a matter of who knows it. If I know its there for my beers, it would drive me [mod edit] bonkers. Except for styles that may benefit from it. I hope my old ale in 2 years has some sherry/port/vinous character derived from oxidation- that will be a good thing!

Makes sense. Many of my beers are around for 1-2 months tops. If I bottle some, they are around a little longer. But the next time I keg, I will purge it just to see if there's anything I notice. I do not make beers that age for years like Barleywines, Old Ales, Lambics, etc. so I have no experience there. Cheers.

[Jimmy James]

I do not make beers that age for years like Barleywines, Old Ales, Lambics, etc. so I have no experience there.

I think those beers have enough other stuff going for them that oxidation is probably less of an issue. Oxidation of some compounds like tannins can soften them and improve the flavor - like in the case of red wine. Big dark beers could even benefit from some oxidation and plenty of beers are aged in barrels which allow plenty of oxygen in. There's also bugs that can scavenge oxygen in most homebrews - like yeast and other critters in the case of lambics. If I were running a commercial brewery and had product that was susceptible to oxygenation like lighter gravity/color beers - then maybe I'd take some precautions since I can't control how long the beer sits on the shelf before it's consumed.

[Slainte]

With that said, im assuming you guys that stand tried and true that NOT purging a keg before racking into it does effect the beer, i must ask about your other techniques. If you secondary, is that vessel purged?Do you constantly purge the head space in all secondary vessels during the conditioning time?When racking out of secondary, is the head space purged?Is your racking 100% a closed system from primary to keg?If you say NO to the above 4 questions, then your opinion needs further validity.

It's not an opinion, oxidation is a proven scientific concept that is well understood in the brewing community (well, professionally anyway...). Pick up one of the countless books on brewing science and see for yourself. By racking beer into a keg filled with oxygen, the beer in turn picks up oxygen.I've had tons of beers from homebrewers that "never have problems" or was "the best beer I ever made" that were undrinkable with countless flaws. I suspect that some people have different levels of sensitivity to things like oxidation, or are just uneducated and don't know what it tastes like.Now, if a homebrewer is happy with the beer he's making without purging, fine. If it all tastes good to him and is friends, he's happy. But the fact of the matter is, by not purging a keg, the beer WILL ALWAYS be packaged with a higher level of dissolved oxygen than by packaging in a purged keg. Which in turn will affect the flavor and stability of the beer.

That's probably true. I know I purge everything, and I even co2 transfer out of a carboy into a purged keg. Generally speaking, the things that are considered overkill to homebrewers are simply industry standards in the pro world. The reality Ive found is that everything you do (and don't do) affects your beer and in most cases it's very noticeable. But, can YOU taste it? I can't count how many homebrews I've had from people who 'never had a problem' and it's pretty obvious they just don't realize those flavors are off-flavors. When you have thousands of people tasting your beer, you'll quickly find out that you have to follow EVERY rule or your beer will reflect your laziness or lack of process. And when you follow every rule, you make better beer consistenty. And the homebrewers who follow every rule will win competitions, consistently. Where you want your process to be is up to you, as the homebrewer who doesn't have to serve the masses. If you and your friends like your beer, you're accomplished. But no matter what, if you don't purge tanks you will have decreased shelf life and increased o2 related off-flavors, every time.

Yep, totally agree.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

It's not an opinion, oxidation is a proven scientific concept that is well understood in the brewing community (well, professionally anyway...). Pick up one of the countless books on brewing science and see for yourself. By racking beer into a keg filled with oxygen, the beer in turn picks up oxygen.I've had tons of beers from homebrewers that "never have problems" or was "the best beer I ever made" that were undrinkable with countless flaws. I suspect that some people have different levels of sensitivity to things like oxidation, or are just uneducated and don't know what it tastes like.Now, if a homebrewer is happy with the beer he's making without purging, fine. If it all tastes good to him and is friends, he's happy. But the fact of the matter is, by not purging a keg, the beer WILL ALWAYS be packaged with a higher level of dissolved oxygen than by packaging in a purged keg. Which in turn will affect the flavor and stability of the beer.Yep, totally agree.

you're right - my beer sucks.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

It's not an opinion, oxidation is a proven scientific concept that is well understood in the brewing community (well, professionally anyway...). Pick up one of the countless books on brewing science and see for yourself. By racking beer into a keg filled with oxygen, the beer in turn picks up oxygen.I've had tons of beers from homebrewers that "never have problems" or was "the best beer I ever made" that were undrinkable with countless flaws. I suspect that some people have different levels of sensitivity to things like oxidation, or are just uneducated and don't know what it tastes like.Now, if a homebrewer is happy with the beer he's making without purging, fine. If it all tastes good to him and is friends, he's happy. But the fact of the matter is, by not purging a keg, the beer WILL ALWAYS be packaged with a higher level of dissolved oxygen than by packaging in a purged keg. Which in turn will affect the flavor and stability of the beer.Yep, totally agree.

you're right - my beer sucks.

You are also correct that I have no idea about what I'm doing and that my friends also have the same uneducated palates. I'm not even sure why I brew beer or they drink it b/c we are such dumbasses. I suppose I should just give up and leave it to the pros. This is a really positive vibe a lot of you guys are putting out. Very friendly and supportive.well - I'm going to continue brewing my shitty ESB right now - have a nice day.

[stellarbrew]

There is no doubt in my mind that oxidation of beer can and does occur. I have a Barleywine I bottled about 4 or 5 years old that is undrinkable because of the stale, wet cardboard taste. I think this was caused by handling a little bit carelessly, and then storing for 4 or more years in an upstairs closet where the temperature consistently climbs into high 80s for sustained periods of time during the summer. I suspect that if that beer had been carefully stored at cellar temperatures during that time, the aging would have been much more forgiving to it.I'm sure that beer will be exposed to more oxygen if it is racked into an unpurged keg, intead of into a purged one. But the question is, how much will it matter in the scheme of things? I don't think anyone is disputing that the phenomenon of oxidation is real - we're just trying to put the contributing factors into perspective. For example, will storage temperature be a much greater factor a year two from now than whatever small amount of oxygen a beer picks up while being quietly racked into an unpurged keg? Is oxidation a bigger risk in a commercial brewery where all of the yeast is thoroughly filtered out, than in a home brewery, where a few weeks of conditioning time may clear the beer up of any yeast cloud, but where there are still a considerable population of yeast that may help to cope with any small amount of oxygen introduced? Whetever the answer to these questions, I see the questions as thoughtful and reasonable...not the rantings of a lazy heretic who is trying to cut corners.

Edited by stellarbrew, 19 December 2009 - 10:23 AM.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

There is no doubt in my mind that oxidation of beer can and does occur. I have a Barleywine I bottled about 4 or 5 years old that is undrinkable because of the stale, wet cardboard taste. I think this was caused by handling a little bit carelessly, and then storing for 4 or more years in an upstairs closet where the temperature consistently climbs into high 80s for sustained periods of time during the summer. I suspect that if that beer had been carefully stored at cellar temperatures during that time, the aging would have been much more forgiving to it.I'm sure that beer will be exposed to more oxygen if it is racked into an unpurged keg, intead of into a purged one. But the question is, how much will it matter in the scheme of things? I don't think anyone is disputing that the phenomenon of oxidation is real - we're just trying to put the contributing factors into perspective. For example, will storage temperature be a much greater factor a year two from now than whatever small amount of oxygen a beer picks up while being quietly racked into an unpurged keg? Is oxidation a bigger risk in a commercial brewery where all of the yeast is thoroughly filtered out, than in a home brewery, where a few weeks of conditioning time may clear the beer up of any yeast cloud, but where there are still a considerable population of yeast that may help to cope with any small amount of oxygen introduced? Whetever the answer to these questions, I see the questions as thoughtful and reasonable...not the rantings of a lazy heretic who is trying to cut corners.

This is my point put in a much calmer way. I'm sorry I'm pissed off here but this isn't the forum I love full of supportive people who keep things in perspective. People come here for advice, not to put down b/c they aren't doing everything 100% the best way.

[Thirsty]

This is my point put in a much calmer way. I'm sorry I'm pissed off here but this isn't the forum I love full of supportive people who keep things in perspective. People come here for advice, not to put down b/c they aren't doing everything 100% the best way.

This thread has 478 views. People do come here for advice, but they also come for opinion. there are many who read this, but do not contribute- which is of course OK. When a topic is discussed positive support is always a plus, but there is much to be said about the angle of devil's advocacy as well. As HBers most of us know we cannot all produce an equivlaency to a pro brewer's resultts, but many strive to get there. Many actually surpass the level as well. If you have the equipt, and your goal is excellence, small procedural enhancements and improvements are what some (maybe not all) seek out, and this is where they come to do that. This thread may or may not have satisfied Ken's inquiry, but even if it did, there may be others that are benefitting along the way. Opinions are there to judge for yourself, not to argue. BTW, hope your ESB comes out delicious. If you chose to brew today outside AG, that is something- it is colder than a welldigger's ass here in MA, can't imagine what it is like in NH! If you are stovetopping it, still good for you- great day to stare at a pot, and be glad you're not out in it!!