41 replies to this topic

[EWW]

I would also like to point out the idea of adding a sugar syrup to the big beer primary to kick up a second fermentation. This will allow us to produce a smaller beer with just grain, and make up the rest with the sugar. To me, it seems like a logical solution.

For me it's more about keeping the sugar and corn at 20% so we aren't making an OE 800 clone

[ChefLamont]

For me it's more about keeping the sugar and corn at 20% so we aren't making an OE 800 clone

Oh now there is a good point. ha.My calculations were based on adding the sugar to the boil, so the sugar would not have no bearing on the small beer. I think that was what you were getting at right jayb?EWW: On the lowering of the bill. I can see that. I started to tinker with the cap for the second beer and realized that it might need lowering to accommodate our specialties.This lead me to a question of calculation. How do you calculate the cap? From the previous calculation I posted, you can pretty easily get the contribution from the first mash. However, do you just calculate the straight extraction potential and efficiency as normal and add that to what you extract from the main mash? It would seem that there would be some dilution and you wouldnt get all that. The reason I asked is that I added something like 2# of various specialties and the OG of the small beer was already up at 1.059 or so.

Edited by ChefLamont, 16 December 2009 - 06:23 PM.

[EWW]

I use this chart on the initial split:

Parti-Gyle Gravity Split Table		Avg OG	1/2 - 1/2 Split (5+5,10+10)		1st half	2nd half1.0500	1.0600	1.04001.0510	1.0612	1.04081.0520	1.0624	1.04161.0530	1.0636	1.04241.0540	1.0648	1.04321.0550	1.0660	1.04401.0560	1.0672	1.04481.0570	1.0684	1.04561.0580	1.0696	1.04641.0590	1.0708	1.04721.0600	1.0720	1.04801.0610	1.0732	1.04881.0620	1.0744	1.04961.0630	1.0756	1.05041.0640	1.0768	1.05121.0650	1.0780	1.05201.0660	1.0792	1.05281.0670	1.0804	1.05361.0680	1.0816	1.05441.0690	1.0828	1.05521.0700	1.0840	1.05601.0710	1.0852	1.05681.0720	1.0864	1.05761.0730	1.0876	1.05841.0740	1.0888	1.05921.0750	1.0900	1.06001.0760	1.0912	1.06081.0770	1.0924	1.06161.0780	1.0936	1.06241.0790	1.0948	1.06321.0800	1.0960	1.06401.0810	1.0972	1.06481.0820	1.0984	1.06561.0830	1.0996	1.06641.0840	1.1008	1.06721.0850	1.1020	1.06801.0860	1.1032	1.06881.0870	1.1044	1.06961.0880	1.1056	1.07041.0890	1.1068	1.07121.0900	1.1080	1.07201.0910	1.1092	1.07281.0920	1.1104	1.07361.0930	1.1116	1.07441.0940	1.1128	1.07521.0950	1.1140	1.0760

For calculation the gravity for the cap I typically do:2nd runnings + [last 2 digits of the OG of the cap figured at 75% efficency x .60] = Estimated total OG of small beerso basically I run the cap through my software at house efficiency to get the gravity of the the cap (use the same volume of water as you are pulling from your second split). Then I transpose the OG to GU (gravity units) and multiply it by 60% to get the adjusted efficiency. I then take that number add it to the estimated OG of the small beer as figured by the split table and get my estimated OG for the whole small beer. It is by no means a perfect system, but it has gotten me close in the past. Is that what you were asking Mr. Lamont? I forgot I had a vet appointment for my dogs so I am a few hours behind today, but will try to get this recipe posted tonightEDIT: if you all see anyway to improve this half assed logic of mine please let me know ... but make sure you refer to it as the Wanzel Method™

Edited by EWW, 16 December 2009 - 07:20 PM.

[jayb151]

My calculations were based on adding the sugar to the boil, so the sugar would not have no bearing on the small beer. I think that was what you were getting at right jayb?

That's partly what I was getting at, although even if it ws a kettle addition it would still have no bearing on the small beer. I also thought adding to the fermenter would me a means of getting the attenuation very high in this brew.

[EWW]

1st draft of grain bill for feedback:I added some 3-row for color in the cream ale becasue it was just too paleMain Mash:13# Pils - 31 gravity pts - 55.3%8# Pale - 19.1 gravity pts - 34.0%2.5# Flaked Corn - 6.8 gravity pts - 10.6%Total OG = 1.057Big BeerOG without sugar = 1.0684Pils (equivalent of 7.8#) - 37 gravity pts - 50.8%Pale (equivalent of 4.8#) - 22.9 gravity pts - 31.3%Flaked corn (equivalent of 1.5#) - 8.2 gravity pts - 9.8%1.25# Cane Sugar - 10.5 gravity points - 8.1%Estimaed OG of Big beer = 1.079Small BeerOG without cap = 1.0456Pils (equivalent of 5.2#)Pale (equivalent of 3.2#)Corn (equivalent of 1#)and now we add the cap:1# crystal 401# smoked.25# chocolate*when I started playing around with this I found the Munich addition was out of the question unless you want an OG of 1.06+ for the small beer. I figure with a 20 min rest at 156+ we can convert that smoked quick and easy.adjusted for the estimated 60% efficency in the cap our small beer will be the rough equivalent of:5.2# Pils Two-row 24.8 - gravity pts - 48.4%3.2# Pils Two-row 15.3 - gravity pts - 29.8%1# Flaked Corn 5.5 - gravity pts - 9.3% .6# Crystal 40L - 2.5 gravity pts - 5.6%.6% Smoked - 3.0 gravity pts - 5.6%.15# Chocolate - 0.6 gravity pts - 1.4%the estimated OG of this would be somewhere around 1.052-ishgranted we will pick up more color then it calculates at these percentages, but it gives a rough idea. It calculates at 10 srm, but my best guess puts it at closer to 15.These are my best attempt considering the imput right now ... feedback is greatly appreciated*all calculations assume 13 gallons preboil for thw main mash and 6.5 gallons for each part of the partigyle preboil^all calculations assume 11 gallons total postboil - so 5.5 gallons going into the carboy for the big and small beer#I did not double check these numbers so they could be off due to an error on my part

[ChefLamont]

I like it. The only question I would have would be about body. Do yall think we would need a little carapils in there so the second beer is not too thin? Also, we mentioned some roastiness, I think a couple to a few ounces of roasted barley could add a nice little touch that would complement the chocolate malt and the smoke malt.Other than brief discussion of those tweeks, I think we are pretty well there.Ok the 60% adjustment for the cap makes sense. Is that number emperical/accepted or is it somehow tied or calculated with this particular partigyle proportion?

[EWW]

I like it. The only question I would have would be about body. Do yall think we would need a little carapils in there so the second beer is not too thin? Also, we mentioned some roastiness, I think a couple to a few ounces of roasted barley could add a nice little touch that would complement the chocolate malt and the smoke malt.Other than brief discussion of those tweeks, I think we are pretty well there.Ok the 60% adjustment for the cap makes sense. Is that number emperical/accepted or is it somehow tied or calculated with this particular partigyle proportion?

60% is the general number that I use for all unsparged grains and is not tied to other calcs. In my experience the actual % is somewhere between 50-60% but I don't have enough data points to warrent doing the math to figure out the exact relationship.Re: the tweeks: I would be kosher with either carapils or roasted barley additions, thow out some concrete numbers re: how much and we can play around with the idea.

[ChefLamont]

Hang on still formualting.

Edited by ChefLamont, 17 December 2009 - 10:30 AM.

[ChefLamont]

Ok. For some reason I got slightly different numbers for the grain bill you proposed. Here is how I calculated it out similarly.For the main mash:13# - 52% Pilsener (1.038)(13)(75%)=371 total points extracted7# - 26.5% AM 2-row (1.036)(7)(75%) = 189 total points extracted2.5# - 10.5% Flaked Corn (1.040)(2.5)(75%) = 75 total points extractedSo, you get a total of 635 points extracted from the grain.(635)(60%) = 381 points go into the big beer(635)(40%) = 254 points go into the small beerBig Beer:381 points from main mash + sugar=381+ (1.046)*2.25=381+104=485 point in the big beer.485/5.5 gal = 88 => Big Beer= 1.088Small Beer:Cap:0.5# - 2.6% Carapils (1.034)(0.5)(75%)(60%)= 8 total points extracted1# - 5.6% Smoked Malt(1.037)(1)(75%)(60%)= 17 total points extracted0.5# - 2.6% Chocolate Malt(1.034)(0.5)(75%)(60%)= 8 total points extracted1# - 4.9% C-40(1.034)(1)(75%)(60%)= 15 total points extracted3oz - 0.7% Roasted Barley(1.037)(0.1875)(75%)(60%)= 2 total points extractedTherefore a total of 50 points comes from the cap.254 points from main mash + cap= 254 + 50 = 304 points in the big beer.304/5.5 gal = 55=> Small Beer= 1.055Looking at it, I think the carapils might be optional depending on how we want it to do with yeast. With the corn in the original, I think it could be right up the alley of a medium-full bodied English beer. However, I could also see removing the Carapils and using a more attenuative yeast and having it be lighter body and crisp smoky brown ale. Either sounds delicious.Edited to hopefully make more sense.

Edited by ChefLamont, 17 December 2009 - 01:37 PM.

[EWW]

Something is fishy here, I'm at work and don't have time to look at it closely right now.  I run the main mash through software set at 75% and get an og around 1.057.  I use the split table as a check of the 60/40 split, but also * the ingredients by .6 and .4 and run those 2 sets of numbers through software set at 75% to make sure the chart and i match up.  When i did this my numbers matched the split chart perfectly.  Since the adjusted numers match the split chart I just add the sugar into that recipe and get the og for the big beer.  For the cap I run it in software as it's own recipe for a 5.5 gal batch at 75%.  Finally I take the cap multiple it by .6 and add it to the small split og to get the total og for the small beer.  For this one I multiplied the cap ingredients by .6 and ran them through software with the main mash * .4 adjusted equivilent that I used to check the split table also.I'll double check my work and notes tonight cause I could have forgotten to carry a one somewhere or something which would eff up everything.

[ChefLamont]

I could have very easily jacked up something as well. Today has been busy and I have just done my calcs in moments here and there time.*note I did go from 8# to 7# of pale in the main mash.note 2: I just noticed that I punched in 2.25# of sugar rather than 1.25. oops

Edited by ChefLamont, 17 December 2009 - 03:29 PM.

[EWW]

Ok. For some reason I got slightly different numbers for the grain bill you proposed. *note I did go from 8# to 7# of pale in the main mash.note 2: I just noticed that I punched in 2.25# of sugar rather than 1.25. oops

I just recalculated the recipe with the numbers written in my post and got the same numbers, so my guess is the difference in the numbers may be the issue that caused your calcs to be off if we add .13# Roasted Barley and add a 1/2# of crystal 10 to the cap the OG of the small beer would raise to somewhere around 1.054 and my guess is that the color would be close to 18 srmJayb, Strange, harryfrog, and/or anyone else ... got feedback on any of this ... are you still in? If it is just me and Mr. Lamont well it ain't much of a community brew but we can move on the hops

[ChefLamont]

blah blah..........your calcs to be off

Oh no you didn't!!! :smilielol:Yea lets run with this. It seems we have hit the original mark. Imperial Cream Ale from the first runnings and a smokey, slightly roasty, darker beer for the second. I will have to tweek the calcs anyway for my brewhouse efficiency. I dont want to bore others (more) to death as we beat the numbers. Given the concept, I would think hops and yeast should be pretty straight forward. Definitely not the mind-bend this was.Plus I am planning to take some time off next week. If we get this wreslted down, I might try to get it in the fermenters.

[EWW]

Oh no you didn't!!! :smilielol:Yea lets run with this. It seems we have hit the original mark. Imperial Cream Ale from the first runnings and a smokey, slightly roasty, darker beer for the second. I will have to tweek the calcs anyway for my brewhouse efficiency. I dont want to bore others (more) to death as we beat the numbers. Given the concept, I would think hops and yeast should be pretty straight forward. Definitely not the mind-bend this was.Plus I am planning to take some time off next week. If we get this wreslted down, I might try to get it in the fermenters.

I want to wait for others to chime in on this (hopefully)...expect a hops thread to start in the next day or so, but what efficiency are you calclating for?

[ChefLamont]

I want to wait for others to chime in on this (hopefully)...expect a hops thread to start in the next day or so, but what efficiency are you calclating for?

Agreed. Why dont we (and by we I mean you ) post a final proposed grain bill so folks can see it. That way people dont have to wade through the above numbers.One thing I do like about the way you calculate it is the way you show the equivalent numbers for each beer. With that, someone could brew either beer individually without doing the partigyle. That may be helpful or desirable to some.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

When you guys are done post up the final recipe decision (in a new thread or update the title or something) so I can decide if I want to try to get in on this, thanks

[jayb151]

I'm still in, I'm just waiting to see the final figures. I'm not too big on manual equations, but so far everything looks good.

[EWW]

Proposed Final Grain BillMain Mash:13# Pils - 55.3%8# Pale - 34.0%2.5# Flaked Corn - 10.6%Total of main mash both beers combined OG = 1.057Big BeerOG of first runnings without sugar = 1.06841.25# Cane Sugar - added at end of boil or during end of primary Estimaed OG of Big beer = 1.079 and should come out around 4 SRMSmall Beersecond runnings plus the cap:1# crystal 401# smoked1/2# of crystal 10.25# chocolate.13# Roasted Barley Estimated OG will be around 1.054 and my guess is that the color would be close to 18 srm*all calculations assume 13 gallons preboil for thw main mash and 6.5 gallons for each part of the partigyle preboil^all calculations assume 11 gallons total postboil - so 5.5 gallons going into the carboy for the big and small beerIf there is no further discussion I will post a hops and yeast thread later tonight (I figure we can combine the 2)

[harryfrog]

Jayb, Strange, harryfrog, and/or anyone else ... got feedback on any of this ... are you still in? If it is just me and Mr. Lamont well it ain't much of a community brew but we can move on the hops

You guys lost me with your number love fest . But...I like where the recipe is headed. I like the small amount of roasted barley in the cap, think the 1lb crystal will make a nice addition - am still a little leery of 1lb of smoked, but WTH.I think I can just about fit the whole f'ing thing in my mash tun (10 gallon igloo). I just brewed an american BW with 25lbs of 2-row and a couple pounds of specialty grain, so I figure the cap will just fit.The cap idea is a new one to me - so I'm hoping that when we've gotten the recipe fingered out you can post some advice on brew day operations. on to hops...

[jayb151]

If there is no further discussion I will post a hops and yeast thread later tonight (I figure we can combine the 2)

Looks pretty good to me.