41 replies to this topic

[EWW]

For concept discussion see this thread.There are many different ways to split a partigyle, but for simplicity we will be doing a 50/50 split on this. So, about 3/5 of the fermentable sugars in the main mash will be in the first runnings and the final 2/5 + any fermentable sugars added in the cap will decide the OG of each beer. When it comes to calculating the grain bill I will formulate 3 different grain bills. The first will be for the main mash calculated for standard 75% efficiency. The second will be for the big beer adjusted for the fact that you will only get 60% of your house efficiency in the first runnngs. The third will be the remaining 40% (FWIW I typically use base malt in software to reach the remaining gravity) + anything we decide to put in the cap. For example if we were to want a 1.090 big beer, the total of gravity for the main mash would be 1.072, and the small beer would be 1.055 + the gravity of the cap. Clear as mud right? Some reading that may help to explain it a bit better then I did:The SWIG methodMosher's methodHBD write up by Keith KlempGreen board write up by TomoMeter that tought me to partigyleSo that is the basics now on to the particulars of this brew. I'm limitted by poll options so we'll leave the base malt discussion to dialouge discussing if we want traditional pils or 2-row. Also since we have agreed upon an Impy cream corn is a given in the main mash so I left it out. The polls are basically around the gravities of each beer and any adjuncts we want to throw in (in the case of the small beer this includes a wider selection based on the possibility of capping with grains that need conversion). If you want additional grains besides base malt and flaked corn please post it ... I was crippled by 3 polls and had to make a choice. I figure the discussion should hash out the rest.If I missed anything please point it out ... However please keep yeast and hop discussion for later threads. Let's make this good people.

[jayb151]

I Voted for under 1.100 for the Imperial CA, 1.045-50 for the small beer, and Smoked Malt, crystal, and chocolate or pale chocolate for the small beer. I like the idea of having a very light strong beer made with Pils, and having a much darker and toasty, smokey small beer. I think this is leading to some interesting discussion!

[ChefLamont]

I also voted 95-100, 45-50. When it got down to the adjuncts, I added smoked, munich, chocolate, and crystal. I dont actually think I would want to have all of those in there. I just cant decide whether to head toward a lighter colored rauchbier kinda thing or more toward a brown/porter kinda thing. Either would be fine.While talking about gravity and adjuncts, I would think we would want to add a fair amount of some kind of sugar to thin the body out of the big beer. While we are headed toward an imperial, to me, cream ale is all about the light bodied drinkability. So, I would think a low mash temp and some sugar would be a must.Depending on the direction of the small beer, this might lead us to putting in some carapils in the second to bump the body up a bit.Wow. So much to process all at once. I love it.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I'm probably not going to do this but wouldn't corn rule a lot of people out. I know I def don't keep it around.

[jayb151]

I'm probably not going to do this but wouldn't corn rule a lot of people out. I know I def don't keep it around.

I think this is a pretty laid back process, so people can brew whenever they get the ingredients. I know I'll have to make a special trip to the store for this one.Chef, I agree completly with the sugar additions, I forgot to say that in my earlier post. I think you're right about the carapils, but wouldn't the regular crystal have the same effect?

[harryfrog]

I like the idea of a the second runnings creating a dark, session beer. Smoked beers was the subject of the brew club meeting this month and I must say I'm still not convinced - not to say I wouldn't give it a shot.

[jayb151]

I like the idea of a the second runnings creating a dark, session beer. Smoked beers was the subject of the brew club meeting this month and I must say I'm still not convinced - not to say I wouldn't give it a shot.

I'm really interested to try the Briess Cherry smoked malt. That's where I'm most interested, but another option is smoking your own malt at home...

[EWW]

I'm really interested to try the Briess Cherry smoked malt. That's where I'm most interested, but another option is smoking your own malt at home...

That's what I as thinking to

When it got down to the adjuncts, I added smoked, munich, chocolate, and crystal. I dont actually think I would want to have all of those in there.  I just cant decide whether to head toward a lighter colored rauchbier kinda thing or more toward a brown/porter kinda thing.  Either would be fine. I would think we would want to add a fair amount of some kind of sugar to thin the body out of the big beer.  While we are headed toward an imperial, to me, cream ale is all about the light bodied drinkability. 

As far as the dark one is concerned I can't decide where it shoul go either since I can see the potential merit of both.  I guess I kind of want to create the beer equivalent of a smoked almond.  Meaning that you pick up the smoke initially but the complxity of the beer takes over after the initial smoked note so it doesn't leave you feeling like you just drank a bottle of liquid smoke.I agree a sugar addition and low mash would help this beer out.  However we need to keep in mind that what ever gravity points we add to the big beer via sugar directly lowers the precap og of the small beer.  If we decide to shoot for a darker and more roasty small beer a healthy addition of Munich to the cap would add some gravity and help to even out the flavor of the dark grains we add.  Capping with Munich would also allow us to play with the second mash temp to increase the mouth feel and maybe use less crystal.

Smoked beers was the subject of the brew club meeting this month and I must say I'm still not convinced - not to say I wouldn't give it a shot.

less is more when it comes to smoke IMO, and the type of smoked malt comes into play too.  Some overdue the smoke (or use peat smoked malt) and the beer looses balance real fast.  I personally feel that Alaskan Smoked Porter is one of the best smoked examples out there and they use alder I think.

[EWW]

Let's keep this conversation going...For the big beer:pils or 2-row as base malt?What % of flaked corn?What percentage of sugar?What type of sugar (corn, table, some form of unrefined)?Any specialty malts? If so what and at what %?Specific thoughts on mash temp?For the small beer:Brown or Porterish in color and degree of roastiness?% of smoked malt and variety?% of chocolate malt?Discussion of what crystal/Cara if any...Do we want this sweet, dry, or somewhere in between?Discussion re: the possible use of Munich or Vienna...And at what % if we use itWhat sort of body are we working towards?Any other thoughts?

[jayb151]

For the big beer:pils or 2-row as base malt? PilsWhat % of flaked corn? about 10-15%What percentage of sugar? about 10What type of sugar (corn, table, some form of unrefined)? I'm down with plain table sugarAny specialty malts? If so what and at what %? I would say noneSpecific thoughts on mash temp? 148? For the small beer:Brown or Porterish in color and degree of roastiness? I would say a darker red/brown with a light roastiness% of smoked malt and variety? Like I said, I'm really interested in the Briess Cherry Smoked Malt. Also, I'm thinking about a pound or so would work.% of chocolate malt? I would say just enough to get a desired colorDiscussion of what crystal/Cara if any...Do we want this sweet, dry, or somewhere in between? I think a meduim to dark Crystal would help to add a good amount of color without adding a ton of sweetnessDiscussion re: the possible use of Munich or Vienna...And at what % if we use it I like the idea of adding some Vienna and adjusting the mash to produce more dextrinsWhat sort of body are we working towards? I would think a medium to full bodied session beer would be good.

[ChefLamont]

My commments are pretty close to jayb151's but there are a few differences:For the big beer:pils or 2-row as base malt?When I do normal cream ale I use 50/50. Since we are going for a bigger version, we should probably slide the balance more toward pilsener, but I wouldnt cut out the pale entirely. I would say 75% pils/25% pale.What % of flaked corn? 15 sounds goodWhat percentage of sugar? 10 sounds goodWhat type of sugar (corn, table, some form of unrefined)? I would say table as well. I have been wanting to try one of the more exotic sugars like palm, but I am not sure that would be appropriate here. We are just looking for a thinning effect.Any specialty malts? If so what and at what %? None.Specific thoughts on mash temp? Agreed. 148 Probably 90 min then a starch test. (This monster could make for a long brew day.)For the small beer:Brown or Porterish in color and degree of roastiness? I am leaning more toward a red/brown. The cherry sounds good to me. I also have some wood from a peach tree that was knocked down. I wouldnt mind the smoke your own option either.% of smoked malt and variety? This is where I differ a bit. I actually like the really smoky, glass-o-bacon beers. If we went lower on the big beer because of the sugar, I wouldn't mind making up the difference in fermentables with smoked malt. Since we are using this to cap the mash, I am not sure how to wrap my head around percentages yet, but I would say a couple of pounds. For those that want less smoke we could always do a how much smoke you want plus a balance of base grain (eg. I want 3 pounds of smoke. jayb151 wants 1 pound, so he adds 1 pound plus 2 more of pils or something). Its kinda a dial in your smoke amount.% of chocolate malt?Just enough to give the color and a slight character. Maybe just enough roast a couple of ounces to give it the slight roastiness mentioned. Discussion of what crystal/Cara if any...Do we want this sweet, dry, or somewhere in between?I think on the dryer side is better but not necessarily DRY. To me sweetness, especially when too much, would get in the the way and dull the smoke, especially if one with delicate fruit flavors is used. As I said before, I think by the second running especially, we would need to increase mouthfeel. So I would say half pound of carapils, quarter pound of C-20 and a quarter pound of C-60.Discussion re: the possible use of Munich or Vienna...And at what % if we use itWhat sort of body are we working towards?Medium body. I am open for either munich or vienna. That is another interesting route.Any other thoughts?So I started crunching through some numbers. EDIT: and it became obvious I need a lot more calculator time on this so I dont say something stupid.

[ChefLamont]

Ok, I have done a little number crunching (please check the math and logic since this is the first time I have calculated such a partigyle) based on some of the stuff we have said already.Assuming 75% efficiency, an 11 gal batch (a 5.5 gal big beer and a 5.5 gal small beer), and a 50/50 partigyle where 60% of the fermentables go to the big beer and 40% got to the small, this is a possible beginning to the grain bill:10.2% Sugar 2.25#56.4% Pilsener Malt 15#19.6% Pale Malt 5.5#13.8% Flaked Corn 3.5#This would give a big beer expected OG of 1.093 after sugar addition and a small beer OG of 1.049 without the cap. I didnt formulate anything for the cap since we still havent discussed that a lot or seemingly reached any consensus.

[EWW]

Great ideas so far and thanks for making this process easy.

10.2% Sugar 2.25#56.4% Pilsener Malt 15#19.6% Pale Malt 5.5#13.8% Flaked Corn 3.5#This would give a big beer expected OG of 1.093 after sugar addition and a small beer OG of 1.049 without the cap. I didnt formulate anything for the cap since we still havent discussed that a lot or seemingly reached any consensus.

I haven't had the time to chrunch the numbers but my my fake mental math of approximation tells me that it looks about right. As far as the grain bill is concerned, it's a great start. I would tweek the amount of corn a bit though. Personally I would like to see the combined total of sugar and corn to be below 20%. The sugar is fine at 10% (I may bump it down to 2# even for simplicity) but I would like to knock the corn down to 2.5-3#. Otherwise this looks about right to me.For the small beer:Brown v Porterish: I think I differ from the rest of you a bit. Since it's been a wet and cold winter so far here I am leaning more towards a nice thick roasty beer. However, mob rule seems to be leading this in the other direction and I'm fine with that.RE: Smoke: the cherry smoked malt seems to be a great option here. With the lighter/less roast option I am leaning towards a .75-1# addition for this 1.050-1.060 beer. When I was at th Alaskan Brewery I had a long conversation with the brewer and when the day was done I left thinking that about 1# per 5 gallon batch was about the right amount to provide a balanced flavor profile.RE: dark malts: For the lighter/less roasty beer that we are talking about I would agree that a little for color would be a good option. For some reason my gut tells me to throw a little roasted barley in with the chocolate to give a little complexity in the toasted notes. Any thoughts on this?RE: Crystal and/or Munich/Vienna Additions: My initial thought without doing math is to add a few pounds of Munich and a little caramunich in the cap and re-mash high ...maybe around 158 for 30 minutes or so. The final goal would be a medium body. Any thoughts on this?

[strangebrewer]

Ok this sounds interesting. Though I have to wonder what an impy cream ale would come out like. That's just not a style I can imagine what an impy version would end up tasting like. Going to be like a low SRM barley wine? Just count on the yeast cutting out before it ferments dry and you end up with something really hot?As for the 2nd beer I think this is where I'd have some fun. I'd vote for 1.045-1.050 beer with Smoked malt, medium crystal, and a little chocolate malt. Then I'd jump off the deep end and add some unmalted wheat as well with the plan to pitch a collection of bugs and critters to make a Flanders-esque beer.

[ChefLamont]

Ok this sounds interesting. Though I have to wonder what an impy cream ale would come out like. That's just not a style I can imagine what an impy version would end up tasting like. Going to be like a low SRM barley wine? Just count on the yeast cutting out before it ferments dry and you end up with something really hot?

I have been kicking around the concept of imperial cream ale for a while in my head. I think the origin of it was in the idea of the belgian tripel. It is a fairly light-bodied easy drinking beer that is very (dangerously) drinkable. Then I thought that the American stable of styles didnt have anything really closely tied to that. Sure we have barleywine and IIPA and even IPA to an extent. They are all somewhat drinkableand even poundable, but not to the level of a tripel. So, in some ways I was thinking towards an americanized tripel. Then I decided to take something American and just push it in that direction.You make a point though, good attenuation will be a key here.

As for the 2nd beer I think this is where I'd have some fun. I'd vote for 1.045-1.050 beer with Smoked malt, medium crystal, and a little chocolate malt. Then I'd jump off the deep end and add some unmalted wheat as well with the plan to pitch a collection of bugs and critters to make a Flanders-esque beer.

I like all you said until bugs. That would just be strange.

[EWW]

Ok this sounds interesting. Though I have to wonder what an impy cream ale would come out like. That's just not a style I can imagine what an impy version would end up tasting like. Going to be like a low SRM barley wine? Just count on the yeast cutting out before it ferments dry and you end up with something really hot?As for the 2nd beer I think this is where I'd have some fun. I'd vote for 1.045-1.050 beer with Smoked malt, medium crystal, and a little chocolate malt. Then I'd jump off the deep end and add some unmalted wheat as well with the plan to pitch a collection of bugs and critters to make a Flanders-esque beer.

Stylistically most higher gravity beers that aren't full of roast tend to be lumped into the BW category. I think what we are going for is a light in color, easy drinking, potent, and mildly hopped beer that has a mild corn character. Fermentation will be key to get this down where we want it. Also high pitch rate and good prefermentation O2 will be needed. This will be discussed in greater detail later I hope.If people are concerned about conversion taking a long time we could talk about adding some beano to the mash to kick start the conversion and break down some of the complex sugars in the big beer. This could also help get the fg down.

[jayb151]

I agree with EWW for the second beer. I was thinking something slightly roasty, slightly toasty, slightly smokey, but light enough to have a few on a cold night (I'm in Chicago!). As for your comments, I'm in complete agreement except for the Roast Barley, although i think in small amounts it can add a nice complexity. I'm also not down with bugs for this one. I'm already sitting on a year old sour stout and really can't afford the room right now. As for attenuation, it really shouldn't be a problem. We can agree on a yeast to use, and also chose a secondary yeast such as a champaign yeast or another high gravity yeast. We can also choose to add the sugar to the secondary insteas of to the boil to make sure every possable bit of maltose is eaten first. It really shouldn't be that difficult.

[strangebrewer]

I have been kicking around the concept of imperial cream ale for a while in my head. I think the origin of it was in the idea of the belgian tripel. It is a fairly light-bodied easy drinking beer that is very (dangerously) drinkable. Then I thought that the American stable of styles didnt have anything really closely tied to that. Sure we have barleywine and IIPA and even IPA to an extent. They are all somewhat drinkableand even poundable, but not to the level of a tripel. So, in some ways I was thinking towards an americanized tripel. Then I decided to take something American and just push it in that direction.You make a point though, good attenuation will be a key here.

Ahh I get it now and in fact think that could be a really cool idea! So a high attenuating yeast that throws some esters for complexity that isn't French or Belgian. Now it gets challenging.

I like all you said until bugs. That would just be strange.

[EWW]

I am starting to play with math a bit and it is looking like I may need to lower the OG a tad on the big beer to allow for a small beer in the range we are talking about with some of the ideas that have been floated out there. This is just a heads up. I'll post a rough grain bill within the next 24 hours to spur further discussion in hopes we can reach majority approval and move on to the hops.

[jayb151]

I am starting to play with math a bit and it is looking like I may need to lower the OG a tad on the big beer to allow for a small beer in the range we are talking about with some of the ideas that have been floated out there.

I would also like to point out the idea of adding a sugar syrup to the big beer primary to kick up a second fermentation. This will allow us to produce a smaller beer with just grain, and make up the rest with the sugar. To me, it seems like a logical solution.