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#1 ER Pemberton

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 02:13 PM

I've been using Weyermann Barke Pils with good results (for the most part) on some helles and other gold lagers.  I mentioned in another thread that I am having trouble drying out the finish of the beer.  I have a beer on tap now that was 90% Barke Pils and 10% Munich 1 and I mashed it at 149° for 90 minutes and believe it or not the finish is on the sweet side.  Is that because Weyermann Pils is less-modified and requires a multi-step mash?  Would I be better off using domestic pilsner malt because it's more/well-modified?  For those who make this style, what malt do you typically use and how would you typically mash it?



#2 neddles

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 02:52 PM

I would use a step mash because I want reliably predictable and complete conversion. Wether or not that will result in a drier finishing in your brewing I cannot say. But I get complete conversion, a dry finish, and great attenuation that way. YMMV.


Edited by neddles, 11 August 2019 - 02:53 PM.

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#3 HVB

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 03:39 PM

Is it a sweet taste or high FG?
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#4 Zsasz

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 03:53 PM

Is it a sweet taste or high FG?

 

good question.

 

as for a solution would mixing in some "hot" malt do the trick?  maybe some regular pils or maybe a touch of american 2-row.


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#5 ER Pemberton

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 04:16 PM

I would use a step mash because I want reliably predictable and complete conversion. Wether or not that will result in a drier finishing in your brewing I cannot say. But I get complete conversion, a dry finish, and great attenuation that way. YMMV.

What are your steps and how do you execute them?  You don't have a direct-fired MT, right?

 

 

Is it a sweet taste or high FG?

That's tough.  It could be underattenuated but it really seems like more of a sweet taste.  What is that telling me?

 

Some other beers I have made were cut with some of this Briess Pilsner but I haven't tasted them.  For a long time I have heard that there were Weyermann pilsners that were less-modified and really required a more elaborate mash schedule.  Honestly, if that's the case I need to look closer at the domestic malt options like Rahr or Briess Pilsner or any others that are available.  I have been brewing A LOT and I will know more as I taste some of these others.  But the real question is whether I'm using a base malt that is not conducive to single-infusion mashes.



#6 pkrone

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 04:34 PM

Unless you know the FG I think you're lost on trying to identify the source of what you're tasting.    It could be that your low ox methods are totally bangin' now and you're getting that great grain flavor and mistaking it for under-attenuation.   It could also be that your low ox methods have led to a more oxygen-deprived wort at pitching and you truly are under-attenuating.    


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#7 ER Pemberton

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 05:00 PM

Unless you know the FG I think you're lost on trying to identify the source of what you're tasting.    It could be that your low ox methods are totally bangin' now and you're getting that great grain flavor and mistaking it for under-attenuation.   It could also be that your low ox methods have led to a more oxygen-deprived wort at pitching and you truly are under-attenuating.    

I thought about both of those.  I'm not on any meds at the moment and I'm not sick but I swear my tastebuds sometimes play tricks on me.  I say that because on Friday night I tapped a glass of this beer and took a sip and thought "Uh-oh.  Why is this beer so sweet?"... then I opened a can of Paulaner Original Munich Lager and it tasted sweet too.  :blink:   I will noodle with it and try to get more data from the other batches I recently made.  Thanks Pete.  



#8 ER Pemberton

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 06:24 PM

Is it reasonable to take a gravity reading at this point?  I tapped a glass of this beer and tried to degas it over the last couple of hours.  I got it to 60° and took a hydro reading and the beer is between 1.008 and 1.010 which surprises me.  Can I consider that an accurate reading?  It smells absolutely lovely.  Maybe I just give it a couple days and sample it again to see if my tastebuds are on the fritz.  But I am glad to see that the beer isn't at 1.018 or something.  



#9 neddles

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 07:27 PM

What are your steps and how do you execute them?  You don't have a direct-fired MT, right?

 

I am direct fired. Typical schedule would be 148F/40min. and 162F/20min. My understanding is that there is a certain percentage of the total starches that may not gelatinize at 148F so the alpha rest at 162F takes care of that plus converting them. The percentage of starches requiring the higher temp to gelatinize can be fairly high and varies among lots of malt.

 

Is it reasonable to take a gravity reading at this point?  I tapped a glass of this beer and tried to degas it over the last couple of hours.  I got it to 60° and took a hydro reading and the beer is between 1.008 and 1.010 which surprises me.  Can I consider that an accurate reading?  It smells absolutely lovely.  Maybe I just give it a couple days and sample it again to see if my tastebuds are on the fritz.  But I am glad to see that the beer isn't at 1.018 or something.  

 

Pour carbonated beer through a coffee filter to degas, it's easier. Sounds like what you did is accurate tho. Taste buds can definitely feck with you.


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#10 ER Pemberton

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 08:13 PM

I am direct fired. Typical schedule would be 148F/40min. and 162F/20min. My understanding is that there is a certain percentage of the total starches that may not gelatinize at 148F so the alpha rest at 162F takes care of that plus converting them. The percentage of starches requiring the higher temp to gelatinize can be fairly high and varies among lots of malt.

 

 

Pour carbonated beer through a coffee filter to degas, it's easier. Sounds like what you did is accurate tho. Taste buds can definitely feck with you.

I've tried a few multi-step mashes which require boiling water and some trial and error (on my system) and I could try that again.  But I guess I'll give it some time and sample some of these other beers before I make any changes.  Cheers and thanks.



#11 ER Pemberton

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 06:46 AM

I let this glass of beer sit in the fridge overnight and then took it out this morning and let it warm up to 60° and took another gravity reading. 1.008. I consider that to be decently dry. Pete, if this is a result of good low-oxygen steps and I'm getting that nice lingering malt flavor but... I feel like the beer has a sweet finish, what's the fix for that? A beer that's 90% pilsner malt and mashed at 149 for 90 minutes? Weird, right? Also, one more time: What would the result be if a brewer used a less-modified malt and did a single infusion?

#12 Zsasz

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 07:23 AM

I let this glass of beer sit in the fridge overnight and then took it out this morning and let it warm up to 60° and took another gravity reading. 1.008. I consider that to be decently dry. Pete, if this is a result of good low-oxygen steps and I'm getting that nice lingering malt flavor but... I feel like the beer has a sweet finish, what's the fix for that? A beer that's 90% pilsner malt and mashed at 149 for 90 minutes? Weird, right? Also, one more time: What would the result be if a brewer used a less-modified malt and did a single infusion?

 

this is an easy one.  more start of the boil hops or higher AA hops.


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#13 pkrone

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 08:42 AM

I let this glass of beer sit in the fridge overnight and then took it out this morning and let it warm up to 60° and took another gravity reading. 1.008. I consider that to be decently dry. Pete, if this is a result of good low-oxygen steps and I'm getting that nice lingering malt flavor but... I feel like the beer has a sweet finish, what's the fix for that? A beer that's 90% pilsner malt and mashed at 149 for 90 minutes? Weird, right? Also, one more time: What would the result be if a brewer used a less-modified malt and did a single infusion?

 

Yeah, more hops.   Sounds like you're getting huge grain flavor as your beer appears well attenuated.      A less modified malt would probably result in a less fermentable wort if you just did a single infusion mash.


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#14 LeftyMPfrmDE

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 08:56 AM

this is an easy one.  more start of the boil hops or higher AA hops.

 

this. reading the thread, seems like a measure of balancing out hop bitterness with malt sweetness. 


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#15 denny

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 08:58 AM

Sounds like you need more sulfate.  That's what dries the finish of the beer.  For the sweet taste, try more hops.


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#16 ER Pemberton

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 08:59 AM

Yeah, more hops.   Sounds like you're getting huge grain flavor as your beer appears well attenuated.      A less modified malt would probably result in a less fermentable wort if you just did a single infusion mash.

I feel like I often suggest X-number of IBUs on the LO forum and I'm often told that I need to go easier on the hops.  Like a 20-IBU beer where I might suggest a couple ticks higher... someone will say, NO, TOO MANY IBUS!   :blink:

 

Thanks Pete.


Sounds like you need more sulfate.  That's what dries the finish of the beer.  For the sweet taste, try more hops.

Hmm.  The LO guys say NO SULFATE.  Pete, what's your take on that?



#17 denny

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 08:59 AM

I feel like I often suggest X-number of IBUs on the LO forum and I'm often told that I need to go easier on the hops.  Like a 20-IBU beer where I might suggest a couple ticks higher... someone will say, NO, TOO MANY IBUS!   :blink:

 

Thanks Pete.

 

Well, if your tastes are like their tastes, then do what they say.  But if you want to make beer YOU like, follow your own advice.


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#18 ER Pemberton

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 09:01 AM

Luckily on some of the beers I made with 2278, I went a little higher on the bittering hops.  



#19 denny

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 09:12 AM

Luckily on some of the beers I made with 2278, I went a little higher on the bittering hops.  

 

Again, try more sulfate.  And stop brewing beers you don't like just because somebody told you to do it that way!  :)


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#20 ER Pemberton

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 09:21 AM

Again, try more sulfate.  And stop brewing beers you don't like just because somebody told you to do it that way!  :)

The beer in question is a helles so it's a fine walk between malt and hops.  The strange thing is that I have never had an issue with that balance in the past.  




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