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First Wort Hop Addititions


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#21 denny

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 09:31 AM

At one NHBC a guy did a test on FWH, 60min and mash hopping.

Sent it off to a lab. normalized to the 60min being 100%, FWH was 110%, Mash hopping was 20%.

 

He brought in the samples of FWH and 60 minute. There were differences to the flavors beyond bitterness. The FWH was smoother despite the 10% higher bittering.

 

I suggested that now knowing the relationship, drop FWH by 9% to get it even with the 60 minute and increase mash hop by 5x to match the 60 minute and retry the experiment. I don't  think it he ever did anything.

IIRC it was cascade, but this could be different depending upon the hop acid composition I guess.

 

The problem with your idea is that you're trying to match measurable IBU, not perceived bitterness, which is what really matters.



#22 Genesee Ted

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 10:29 AM

The problem with your idea is that you're trying to match measurable IBU, not perceived bitterness, which is what really matters.

IBU is a somewhat imperfect measurement. It can be pretty confusing to the general public. I put them on the descriptions but I wish they didn’t want them there. People look at 100 IBU and they think they are going to be blasted with bitterness but that’s just not always the case. I’ve been just simply telling people at the bar that it’s just an indicator of how much hops are in a beer, even though it’s of course not really.

#23 Big Nake

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 12:00 PM

Doobah:  How do YOU measure the IBUs of a FWH addition?  The calculator I'm currently using shows them at ZERO.  <_<

 

Over the weekend I'm going to make a pale lager with some Barke Pils, some Briess Pilsen and some Munich 1 and I'm going to add 1.5 ounces of Hallertau (3.8%) as a FWH and then add another 1.5 ounces for 30 minutes.  The IBUs show something like 14 because only the boil additions are tallying any IBUs.  I know the beer will be well-bittered and well-balanced but it would be cool to get a handle on what FWH additions truly contribute.  



#24 HVB

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 12:15 PM

Doobah:  How do YOU measure the IBUs of a FWH addition?  The calculator I'm currently using shows them at ZERO.  <_<

 

Over the weekend I'm going to make a pale lager with some Barke Pils, some Briess Pilsen and some Munich 1 and I'm going to add 1.5 ounces of Hallertau (3.8%) as a FWH and then add another 1.5 ounces for 30 minutes.  The IBUs show something like 14 because only the boil additions are tallying any IBUs.  I know the beer will be well-bittered and well-balanced but it would be cool to get a handle on what FWH additions truly contribute.  

My spreadsheet gives me 19.6 for the FWH and 8.9 for the 30 minute addition. This is based on 6g of 1.050 wort



#25 Big Nake

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 12:32 PM

Wha?
 
Look here:
Prague-Pilsner-2019.jpg
18.3 for the 30 and nothing for the FWH.  Do you have your numbers transposed?

#26 HVB

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 12:47 PM

I had 1 at 30 not 1.5 ..Opps!

New numbers

FWH - 19.6
30 - 13.35
Total - 32.93

66509505_10158895632799657_2740808838499

Edited by HVB, 11 July 2019 - 12:49 PM.


#27 denny

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 02:02 PM

Doobah:  How do YOU measure the IBUs of a FWH addition?  The calculator I'm currently using shows them at ZERO.  <_<

 

Over the weekend I'm going to make a pale lager with some Barke Pils, some Briess Pilsen and some Munich 1 and I'm going to add 1.5 ounces of Hallertau (3.8%) as a FWH and then add another 1.5 ounces for 30 minutes.  The IBUs show something like 14 because only the boil additions are tallying any IBUs.  I know the beer will be well-bittered and well-balanced but it would be cool to get a handle on what FWH additions truly contribute.  

 

You don't measure them so much as estimate them.  As my experiment showed, they may measure more IBUs, but to most s like less.  Since I taste my beer that's what I care about.



#28 jayb151

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 05:54 AM

Agreed Denny. When I do 60 minute boils, I estimate a FWH to be around 30-25 minutes addition for IBU purposes. That's just where I got after trying it out a good number of times. 

 

I PERCEIVE a FWH to be about equivalent to the bittering of a 25-30 min addition. In my spreadsheet I call the addition a FWH but enter 25-ish for calculation purposes. Then again, I'm kind of fast and loose with brewing. I know that would never fly at Ken's Brewery  ;)



#29 positiveContact

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 06:09 AM

Agreed Denny. When I do 60 minute boils, I estimate a FWH to be around 30-25 minutes addition for IBU purposes. That's just where I got after trying it out a good number of times. 

 

I PERCEIVE a FWH to be about equivalent to the bittering of a 25-30 min addition. In my spreadsheet I call the addition a FWH but enter 25-ish for calculation purposes. Then again, I'm kind of fast and loose with brewing. I know that would never fly at Ken's Brewery  ;)

 

I put in 20min just based on what I heard.  I feel pretty much 100% sure that I wouldn't be able to taste a beer made with FWH and a beer with the same addition made at X minutes and tell you they seem like the same IBUs.



#30 Big Nake

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 07:14 AM

First of all, thanks to Drez for doing that. It's a little weird because my calculator (using Tinseth, apparently) came to 18.34 for the 30m addition and Drez came to 13.35 which is a pretty big discrepancy.  Then his FWH addition shows MORE IBUs than the 30.  On one hand that sounds reasonable because it's the same amount of hops and they're in contact with the wort longer.  OTOH, many things you hear about FWH suggests it's more like a 20m addition so you would think it would be a lower number.  I suppose the good news is that when I put the recipe together I envisioned this type of hopping picture and thought it would be excellent for a Czech-style lager and if Drez came to 32.xx IBUs, that sounds lovely to me.   I need to make a starter TODAY!  :lol:  Cheers kids.

 



#31 zymot

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 07:50 AM

I have always looked at the bitterness/IBU calculation thing with a bit of skepticism. At least for the homebrewer. Seemed as much of a dark art as science. Way too many variables in play.

 

The fact that there are different algorithms/formulas to calculate the same thing is interesting.

 

It is like there is more than one definition of a meter.

"How long is that stick?"

"It is 1.46 meters Tinseth, 1.78 meters Ragar."

 

I am not bothered by it. My taste buds and my memory is "calibrated" for Tinseth. But flavor memory and long term memory are dubious tools at best.

 

It will be interesting to see how my Alt comes out. I wanted a laid back hop presence. If it ends up with more hops than I expected, I will remember that and dial back my IBU calculations.

 

It will be beer that I made.



#32 Big Nake

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 07:59 AM

I have always looked at the bitterness/IBU calculation thing with a bit of skepticism. At least for the homebrewer. Seemed as much of a dark art as science. Way too many variables in play.

 

The fact that there are different algorithms/formulas to calculate the same thing is interesting.

 

It is like there is more than one definition of a meter.

"How long is that stick?"

"It is 1.46 meters Tinseth, 1.78 meters Ragar."

 

I am not bothered by it. My taste buds and my memory is "calibrated" for Tinseth. But flavor memory and long term memory are dubious tools at best.

 

It will be interesting to see how my Alt comes out. I wanted a laid back hop presence. If it ends up with more hops than I expected, I will remember that and dial back my IBU calculations.

 

It will be beer that I made.

I agree.  Some beers are made with all the hops added at the end of the boil.  Wouldn't that be ZERO IBUs?   :huh:



#33 HVB

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 08:06 AM

I agree.  Some beers are made with all the hops added at the end of the boil.  Wouldn't that be ZERO IBUs?   :huh:

No, not the case.  Just because you do not boil the hop does not mean you do not get bitterness.  It has been shown you get bitterness from dryhopping.

 

I do plenty of beers that have no hops added to the whirlpool and I would say they are about 30-35IBU to my tastes.



#34 Big Nake

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 08:19 AM

No, not the case.  Just because you do not boil the hop does not mean you do not get bitterness.  It has been shown you get bitterness from dryhopping.

 

I do plenty of beers that have no hops added to the whirlpool and I would say they are about 30-35IBU to my tastes.

That sounds reasonable and I agree that our tastebuds should be the measuring stick but according to most calculators, the IBUs would probably calc to zero or close to zero.  



#35 HVB

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 09:41 AM

That sounds reasonable and I agree that our tastebuds should be the measuring stick but according to most calculators, the IBUs would probably calc to zero or close to zero.  

 

I know the beersmith app I have gives IBU values to WP hops that is close to a 20 minute addition.  I normally just go by the seat of my pants and experience these days and do not bother with the numbers as much.



#36 denny

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 09:50 AM

That sounds reasonable and I agree that our tastebuds should be the measuring stick but according to most calculators, the IBUs would probably calc to zero or close to zero.  

 

Do you remember the interview we did with Glenn Tinseth?  He said that unless you use the same equipment and procedure he does, there's no reason to think that his calculations will be accurate for you.



#37 Stout_fan

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 12:14 PM

My guidelines

1. Try and document a process

2. do you like it? if not repeat step 1, if perfect you're done, if not modify until you do. document and repeat



#38 positiveContact

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 12:17 PM

My guidelines

1. Try and document a process

2. do you like it? if not repeat step 1, if perfect you're done, if not modify until you do. document and repeat

 

bingo!



#39 zymot

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 01:24 PM

Do you remember the interview we did with Glenn Tinseth?  He said that unless you use the same equipment and procedure he does, there's no reason to think that his calculations will be accurate for you.

 

Wow. That is amazing.

 

I tend to use the IBU integer and/or the bitterness ratio is what I remember what I like. Or finding a recipe that seems about right.

 

I might have to go to start using the the Pemberton scale. Any IBU is too much.  :smilielol:  :chug:  :cabbagepatch:



#40 Big Nake

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 03:01 PM

I might have to go to start using the the Pemberton scale. Any IBU is too much.  :smilielol:  :chug:  :cabbagepatch:

I tend to like smoooooth, balanced beers.  I make pale ales, ambers, red ales, etc. but nothing that I make is so bitter or hoppy that you won't be able to have dreams when you sleep.  :lol:  Helles, Vienna, Festbier, Dunkel, amber lagers, etc. are what I make most.




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