136 replies to this topic

[Big Nake]

I would think the pouring it onto the pie tin at the top of the mash is going to pick up some O2.

I'm sure it would.

Also, I thought the idea of recircing a low-O2 mash was to recirc it during the mash to minimize stirring/splashing. That would (I think) also eliminate the need to recirculate after the mash is done and before runoff.

Yeah, so not sure how to address that. I currently pour my strike water into the MT, stir, check temp, play with the pH and then leave the mash alone for 60 minutes. Then I recirc into a measuring cup (maybe 5-6 times), then attach a hose and run it off into the kettle. Same for the sparge volume. I'm not sure of a low-O2 way for that same process to occur which is one reason I always balk at the process.

[pkrone]

Agreed.   Minimizing splashing is the key.   The tri-fecta is helpful for protecting the wort, but can only go so far.     However,   I found that I wasn't stirring my wort enough at first.   My efficiency took a huge hit and the only reason was a lack of initial stirring.    So now I stir, but gently.   Since I have a 2-piece floating mash cap, I can just crack in enough to get a paddle in there to strir and still have most of the mash covered.  Efficiency is back up where it should be now. 

[neddles]

Pkrone, how much did you cut off your dip tube in the keg that you spund? I would assume a good amount of yeast and some trub is going to settle down there.

Edited by neddles, 12 December 2017 - 02:33 PM.

[pkrone]

I haven't cut any of them yet.  I just haven't gotten around to it.    My spunded beers usually clear pretty quickly, however.   It's this unitank one that's taking its time. 

[neddles]

I haven't cut any of them yet. I just haven't gotten around to it. My spunded beers usually clear pretty quickly, however. It's this unitank one that's taking its time.

Ok good info. Are you just pumping the $#!t out the tap until it runs clear?

Alternate question. Maybe better asked over at lowO2 forum but... are you/ is anyone spunding with finings? Kind of the same way many English breweries send a beer to cask with finings and with .004 points left? Seems the active yeast would take care of any O2 in the finings themselves.

[pkrone]

I haven't fined a spunded beer.  I think there was a thread over there about it, but I'm pretty sure most folks don't do it.     

 

Well, ideally, I would've swirled that unitank beer and purged the yeast several times before I tapped it.   There was plenty of natural carbonation to push out the yeast w/o hooking it up to gas.  Meh,  live and learn...    It tastes good but has that yeast bite of a zwickelbier.     I'll be curious to see how the spunded keg from the same batch turns out clarity-wise.        That's been the nice thing about doing 10 gallons at time with these changes I've made:  it's easy to try different things w/ each 5 gallons and then be able to directly compare the results.      I think the next one in line is my 2206 versus 2308.  

Edited by pkrone, 12 December 2017 - 04:04 PM.

[neddles]

I haven't fined a spunded beer.  I think there was a thread over there about it, but I'm pretty sure most folks don't do it.    

Ok, thanks. I'll see what I can find over there and ask if I come up empty handed.

 

 

That's been the nice thing about doing 10 gallons at time with these changes I've made:  it's easy to try different things w/ each 5 gallons and then be able to directly compare the results. 

 

Im not set up for that but yeah, that is a great way to do it.

 

I also need to read that unitank thread but it's a big one and, alas, I have less time than I do motivation right now!

[Big Nake]

Okay, bear with me. I have been putting all of this together as well as looking for some of my tools (SMB, tubing for the recirc, hi-temp tubing to transfer strike water to MT, etc). I'm also going to pick up some ascorbic acid and some 2124 (for some lagers) at the supplier this week as well as some foam board to make a mash cap. I was just looking at a bunch of plastic lids, pot lids, etc. thinking I could find one that would fit but no luck so I'll build one. Here's the plan:

Condition the malt.
Add 10g each of sugar and brewers yeast to the 7.5 gallons of water I typically use for a 5-gallon batch. Let it sit for 2 hours.
Heat 5 gallons of strike water, add the trifecta mix (1.65g total... .66g SMB, .66g AA, .33g BTB) near the end of the heating.
Use the hi-temp tubing to transfer the water into the MT with the grains waiting.
Stir gently, take temp and pH readings and then cover with mash cap and leave for 60 minutes.
Gently recirc the wort as little as necessary using a short length of tubing into a measuring cup and carefully pour that back into the mash. (*)
Runoff from the MT into the kettle. (*)
Transfer the already-heated sparge water into the MT with the hi-temp tubing.
Recirc and runoff again. (*)
Boil as usual, use the SS chiller to chill.
Allow kettle to rest in ice & water in sink.
Transfer to primary (*)
Oxygenate with pure O2
Pitch.

All of the spots with an asterisk is where I assume I'll pick up O2 and where most of you winced when you read it. I don't know another way to recirc and runoff into the kettle so if anyone has an idea, let me know.

Also, with the trifecta mix, should I still add BTB to the sparge and to the boil (mixed with water) or no?

I could spund the batch as well but I'm not sure I'm ready to go that far. It should also be noted that I go from primary to a purged keg via open-transfer. I do not force Starsan from keg to keg with CO2, etc. but that's a thought too. What do you think?

[neddles]

Other than the shortcomings you noted I think it looks pretty solid. I've got at least as many shortcomings in my system. There is a good argument for not adding BTB to the boil (aside from my experience) especially if your wort will only be in contact with stainless and no other metals, particularly copper. If your not going to spund I would guess the complete 5 gallon volume purge of starsan from the keg becomes that much more important. In theory anyhow.

[HVB]

As for boil btb, I plan to use it but have the dreaded copper chiller.

[Big Nake]

It's possible that the 30 minutes I save on the boil will be eaten up by all of this transferring and other shenanigans but I'm willing to try it as the most robust effort of mine towards low-O2. For those of you who have done it, do you think that my outlined process above would display any noticeable improvement in the beer? As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I don't detect a flaw but that's not very scientific. If I made a beer as outlined above and thought it was truly superior beer, it would be exciting for sure.

All of that said and depending on what I find after trying this, I'm willing to totally reexamine my process and equipment. The way I see it, I have been skating with a very, very cheap and simple system for many years. I may ask some of you to envision a system where I start from scratch so that I could really screw down the low-O2 pieces of the process. No, I don't want to spend $5000 on a new system but I would make changes if it meant superior beer and an easier brewday and without the constant nagging question of "how do I change my current system to be low-O2?".

[pkrone]

As for boil btb, I plan to use it but have the dreaded copper chiller.

 

Don't fret the copper CFC thing.   I had great results using mine.   I really only switched to a SS one because I wanted to start whirlpooling my wort while I chilled to keep the cold break out of the fermenter.   Harvesting just yeast with minimal trub is nice...

[pkrone]

Okay, bear with me. I have been putting all of this together as well as looking for some of my tools (SMB, tubing for the recirc, hi-temp tubing to transfer strike water to MT, etc). I'm also going to pick up some ascorbic acid and some 2124 (for some lagers) at the supplier this week as well as some foam board to make a mash cap. I was just looking at a bunch of plastic lids, pot lids, etc. thinking I could find one that would fit but no luck so I'll build one. Here's the plan:

Condition the malt.
Add 10g each of sugar and brewers yeast to the 7.5 gallons of water I typically use for a 5-gallon batch. Let it sit for 2 hours.
Heat 5 gallons of strike water, add the trifecta mix (1.65g total... .66g SMB, .66g AA, .33g BTB) near the end of the heating.
Use the hi-temp tubing to transfer the water into the MT with the grains waiting.
Stir gently, take temp and pH readings and then cover with mash cap and leave for 60 minutes.
Gently recirc the wort as little as necessary using a short length of tubing into a measuring cup and carefully pour that back into the mash. (*)
Runoff from the MT into the kettle. (*)
Transfer the already-heated sparge water into the MT with the hi-temp tubing.
Recirc and runoff again. (*)
Boil as usual, use the SS chiller to chill.
Allow kettle to rest in ice & water in sink.
Transfer to primary (*)
Oxygenate with pure O2
Pitch.

All of the spots with an asterisk is where I assume I'll pick up O2 and where most of you winced when you read it. I don't know another way to recirc and runoff into the kettle so if anyone has an idea, let me know.

Also, with the trifecta mix, should I still add BTB to the sparge and to the boil (mixed with water) or no?

I could spund the batch as well but I'm not sure I'm ready to go that far. It should also be noted that I go from primary to a purged keg via open-transfer. I do not force Starsan from keg to keg with CO2, etc. but that's a thought too. What do you think?

 

 

What's your boil like?   Rolling or simmering?   I've gone to more of a simmer with my kettle partially covered.

[Big Nake]

What's your boil like?   Rolling or simmering?   I've gone to more of a simmer with my kettle partially covered.

Probably a wide range from simmer to rolling. I boil in the garage on a propane stand in a 10-gallon Polarware pot. I have always rested my lid on the pot with some amount of open space (an inch or so). I have read that boiling less vigorously could be a benefit so I have been leaning in that direction.

[Big Nake]

A question I thought about last night: This doesn't really apply to me but it occurred to me while on the subject of low-O2... how does fly-sparging fit into the low-O2 thing? I would think that would be a huge way to pick up O2. I have never done it but looking at the whole splashing, aerating idea... it seems like a problem.

[pkrone]

An excellent question and one I wrestled with when starting LoDo.    If I'm doing just a 5 gallon batch, I'll do a full volume mash.    If I'm doing 10 gallons, I'll do a mostly full volume mash and fly sparge the last 2 or 3 gallons of water needed.   My mash tun doesn't have enough room for 11 lbs of grain and 13 gallons of water.   Found that out the hard way...    I'll do the yeast de-ox for the larger batch for 2 reasons:  I don't have room to boil enough water w/ the chiller that I need and I think the oxygen ingress w/ the lid on and under a CO2 blanket in my HLT during the mash while waiting to sparge is minimal.     I sparge under my mash cap too, so there's no splashing.   I have to peek a lot to make sure the water level in the mash stays where I want it, but it's under the cap so it's shouldn't be detrimental. 

[HVB]

I think I will be pushing my test batch out at least one week.  I am still trying to get my head around some of the changes and need a bit more time for some brewhouse re-design.  I also want to get my fermenter set up with the racking cane installed permanently and a few things touched up.  My stuff from Amazon did come in today, a day early so that is nice.

[pkrone]

Yeah, that's pretty good for the Christmas season.  

[Big Nake]

Kids: I'm going to take a half-assed swing at some of this today with an Amber Ale I'm making with 1469. I realized that there is nothing on the calendar today so I'll have a little extra time to do this. I filtered my water just now and then put 6.6g each of bakers yeast and sugar into 5 gallons of strike water and 3.3g each into the sparge water. That started at 10:30 central so I have to wait for about two hours. The containers with the water are outside on the front porch at about 40°... will that be okay? Then I'll use the SMB and BTB (I don't have the AA yet) in the mash along with my mineral additions. Then I'll use the hi-temp tubing to transfer the water into the MT with the grains waiting. Get temp and pH correct and then I'll just use some heavy duty foil I have... it won't be a "mash cap" as much as it will be a temporary "pesky O2 barrier" since I haven't gotten the foam board yet. After 60 minutes I'll recirc (using this short length of tubing for less splashing), runoff into the kettle, transfer the sparge water with the hi-temp tubing, recirc, runoff, boil gently, chill and then probably transfer through a strainer into the primary, add pure O2 and pitch this active 1469 slurry. No clue if any of that will make a noticeable difference but I'll be alert on my first sampling of it. Not sure if I'm ready for a spund yet but if anyone has a "by the numbers" process for that, I'm all ears.

[denny]

Kids: I'm going to take a half-assed swing at some of this today with an Amber Ale I'm making with 1469. I realized that there is nothing on the calendar today so I'll have a little extra time to do this. I filtered my water just now and then put 6.6g each of bakers yeast and sugar into 5 gallons of strike water and 3.3g each into the sparge water. That started at 10:30 central so I have to wait for about two hours. The containers with the water are outside on the front porch at about 40°... will that be okay? Then I'll use the SMB and BTB (I don't have the AA yet) in the mash along with my mineral additions. Then I'll use the hi-temp tubing to transfer the water into the MT with the grains waiting. Get temp and pH correct and then I'll just use some heavy duty foil I have... it won't be a "mash cap" as much as it will be a temporary "pesky O2 barrier" since I haven't gotten the foam board yet. After 60 minutes I'll recirc (using this short length of tubing for less splashing), runoff into the kettle, transfer the sparge water with the hi-temp tubing, recirc, runoff, boil gently, chill and then probably transfer through a strainer into the primary, add pure O2 and pitch this active 1469 slurry. No clue if any of that will make a noticeable difference but I'll be alert on my first sampling of it. Not sure if I'm ready for a spund yet but if anyone has a "by the numbers" process for that, I'm all ears.

 

I'd guess that at that temp the yeast won't do much, if anything.