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Can we talk about pkrone's "Trifecta anti-ox"?


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#61 neddles

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 02:14 PM

Oh, duh: 1g of SMB, 1g of ascorbic acid and ½g of BTB in the strike water. I might try that.

 

 

pkrone's post in the PICTURE OF YOUR PINT thread said 2.5g of the trifecta mix and in this thread he said 40/40/20.

 

 

Getting back to the anti-ox. Pkrone.... how did you come about the dosage 1g/1g/0.5g? Is this a standard dose per unit of mash water or pounds of grain? Or was this tailored to your system/process (came about by trial and error and/or testing of some kind). If it is as simple as me throwing this 1g/1g/0.5g I'm going to go for it. Any guidance you can give me here? Also the ascorbic acid... can I just pick up some Powdered AA at the health food store or is there a preferred source? Does the trifecta mix alter predicted mash pH in any way and if so how are you accounting for it? Sorry for all the questions but if this is relatively simple then I want to move on with it. 


Edited by neddles, 08 December 2017 - 02:14 PM.


#62 Big Nake

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 02:27 PM

Getting back to the anti-ox. Pkrone.... how did you come about the dosage 1g/1g/0.5g? Is this a standard dose per unit of mash water or pounds of grain? Or was this tailored to your system/process (came about by trial and error and/or testing of some kind). If it is as simple as me throwing this 1g/1g/0.5g I'm going to go for it. Any guidance you can give me here? Also the ascorbic acid... can I just pick up some Powdered AA at the health food store or is there a preferred source? Does the trifecta mix alter predicted mash pH in any way and if so how are you accounting for it? Sorry for all the questions but if this is relatively simple then I want to move on with it.

All good points. I typically mash with 5 gallons of water so I would be interested in what amounts of the trifecta mix too... based on water volume. I see ascorbic acid at my local suppliers and it's often labeled as ASCORBIC ACID (FOR WINE) for whatever the reason.

#63 pkrone

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 03:04 PM

Getting back to the anti-ox. Pkrone.... how did you come about the dosage 1g/1g/0.5g? Is this a standard dose per unit of mash water or pounds of grain? Or was this tailored to your system/process (came about by trial and error and/or testing of some kind). If it is as simple as me throwing this 1g/1g/0.5g I'm going to go for it. Any guidance you can give me here? Also the ascorbic acid... can I just pick up some Powdered AA at the health food store or is there a preferred source? Does the trifecta mix alter predicted mash pH in any way and if so how are you accounting for it? Sorry for all the questions but if this is relatively simple then I want to move on with it. 

  

So the thought process for oxygen scavengers is start at a certain dose and then cut back based on testing for residual sulfur in the beer.  The way folks test is using sulfite test strips at yeast pitching.   The other is using your nose...    I've had one total fart beer.   The sulfur dissipated over the next week.  But that fart smell means there were residual sulfites in the wort that didn't get used up.     My initial dose of trifecta was 3.3 gr/7.5 gallons of water (whick was about 50 ppm for the SMB).  I'm down to 2.5 and haven't had a fart beer since.   Yes, the trifecta does lower the pH.     There's a speadsheet available kinda like Bru'nwater at  http://www.lowoxygen...ce-spreadsheet/  to help with dosing and such.   I'm totally excel-challanged, so I'm pretty intimidated by that thing.  

 

I got my AA of amazon.

 

No worries about the questions, man.    I'm no LoDo mensa, but I do like the results.  

 

pete



#64 pkrone

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 03:18 PM

That was the quick reference sheet I listed previously.

 

Here's the big dog spreadsheet.

 

http://www.lowoxygen...6.3-Public.xlsx



#65 Big Nake

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 03:19 PM

Sounds like I should use 1.65g of trifecta in 5 gallons of water just doing some simple calcs. Pk's 2.5g in 7.5 gallons of water comes to .33 so my 5 gallons would come to 1.65g. So .66g of SMB and AA and then .33g of BTB. Does that seem reasonable?

#66 pkrone

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 03:33 PM

That looks good.     I've yet to have a fart beer with any of 3 strains of lager yeast I've used so far.    US-05 is the only ale yeast I've used other than 3068 for weissbiers.   An additional rationale for wort oxygenation is to use up any residual SMB.   



#67 Big Nake

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 04:13 PM

"Fart beer" is another new brewing term I learned. :D. Or... I thought ALL beers were fart beers. :lol:

#68 neddles

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 07:14 PM

Thanks for the great response pkrone. I have been eyeballing that spreadsheet for a while and it looks like it just got another update today. I just need a little time to play with it. 



#69 pkrone

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 08:20 AM

You betcha.   I really haven't messed with the spreadsheet much because I don't brew much of a variety of beers.   Pale lagers and ales are about all I do.   So I pretty much make the same water for every beer: RO and CaCl.      I'll probably started tweaking my water more down the road.   My first goal was to get a LoDo wort production method down (it's taken a while), now I'm focusing on yeast/packaging, then will look at water.    Fun stuff!



#70 HVB

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 07:13 AM

I will give the spreadsheet a look in a bit but is this mix only used in the mash?  Nothing in the boil?



#71 pkrone

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 10:23 AM

Depending on how you get your strike water into the mash can dictate the best time to add.   I purge my lines w/ CO2 and pump the water into the bottom of the tun, so I don't expect much oxygen pick-up, thus   I just add to the mash.     Before I started purging my lines, I'd add it to the strike water.       Nope, nothing in the boil except hydrated Irish moss at 15 minutes left. 



#72 HVB

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 09:10 AM

Seems to be only one way to know if this makes beer any better and that is to try it. 

 

I ordered SMB and AA and that will be here friday.  I plan to make a mash cap out of some 2" rigid foam covered in aluminum foil with taped seams.  I am not sure how I will have my re circulation set up but that should be a simple project.  I will heat the water in my BK and then underlet into my HLT that will have the grain in a bag, it will be a full volume mash.  I will then reverse it and pump the wort back to the brew kettle filling from the bottom. I have the ability to purge all my lines so I will do that.

 

What will not be done:

I will still have a copper CFC, that is not going anywhere

I will not pre-boil my water.  I will give the yeast de-ox a try with 10g of yeast and sugar

If this is a lager I will not chill to lager temp.  I will instead chill to what I can then cap the fermenter with CO2 and wait till it is at the proper temp.

 

I am still up in the air on what style beer I will do and what yeast I will use.  I am also trying to figure out how I will grab samples for pH and gravity since this will all be covered with the mash cap.  I am thinking now that I will have a 3-way valve installed for inline samples.



#73 neddles

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 10:16 AM

Seems to be only one way to know if this makes beer any better and that is to try it. 

 

I ordered SMB and AA and that will be here friday.  I plan to make a mash cap out of some 2" rigid foam covered in aluminum foil with taped seams.  I am not sure how I will have my re circulation set up but that should be a simple project.  I will heat the water in my BK and then underlet into my HLT that will have the grain in a bag, it will be a full volume mash.  I will then reverse it and pump the wort back to the brew kettle filling from the bottom. I have the ability to purge all my lines so I will do that.

 

What will not be done:

I will still have a copper CFC, that is not going anywhere

I will not pre-boil my water.  I will give the yeast de-ox a try with 10g of yeast and sugar

If this is a lager I will not chill to lager temp.  I will instead chill to what I can then cap the fermenter with CO2 and wait till it is at the proper temp.

 

I am still up in the air on what style beer I will do and what yeast I will use.  I am also trying to figure out how I will grab samples for pH and gravity since this will all be covered with the mash cap.  I am thinking now that I will have a 3-way valve installed for inline samples.

 

Sounds like a reasonable plan to me. When my SMB arrives I am going to try it out on a helles. I think pulling off the cap for a gentle stir or pH sample isn't going to ruin anything. Pkrone alluded to it earlier (and can correct me if I am wrong) but I think you want to make sure to oxygenate the wort. That should use up and residual sulfites you might have going into the fermentor. Can't remember if using O2 is a current part of your process or not.



#74 HVB

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 10:26 AM

Sounds like a reasonable plan to me. When my SMB arrives I am going to try it out on a helles. I think pulling off the cap for a gentle stir or pH sample isn't going to ruin anything. Pkrone alluded to it earlier (and can correct me if I am wrong) but I think you want to make sure to oxygenate the wort. That should use up and residual sulfites you might have going into the fermentor. Can't remember if using O2 is a current part of your process or not.

I have not been but I have it available to me.  I assume that it would be best to do that as normal right before pitching.

 

Helles is also on my list, if only I had some hallertau :).  I have a cake of 34/70 and then some Bayern I can build up.  The 3 way valve is something I already have and could just have it on the exit of my RIMS.  Once I get the cap in place with the RIMS return line I am not sure how much I will want to mess with it. 



#75 pkrone

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 11:51 AM

Seems to be only one way to know if this makes beer any better and that is to try it. 

 

I ordered SMB and AA and that will be here friday.  I plan to make a mash cap out of some 2" rigid foam covered in aluminum foil with taped seams.  I am not sure how I will have my re circulation set up but that should be a simple project.  I will heat the water in my BK and then underlet into my HLT that will have the grain in a bag, it will be a full volume mash.  I will then reverse it and pump the wort back to the brew kettle filling from the bottom. I have the ability to purge all my lines so I will do that.

 

What will not be done:

I will still have a copper CFC, that is not going anywhere

I will not pre-boil my water.  I will give the yeast de-ox a try with 10g of yeast and sugar

If this is a lager I will not chill to lager temp.  I will instead chill to what I can then cap the fermenter with CO2 and wait till it is at the proper temp.

 

I am still up in the air on what style beer I will do and what yeast I will use.  I am also trying to figure out how I will grab samples for pH and gravity since this will all be covered with the mash cap.  I am thinking now that I will have a 3-way valve installed for inline samples.

 

 

Sounds awesome.  I have enough gap in my mash cap to sneak little pipette in there and get samples for pH and brix.     I found the aluminum foil cover on my mash cap to not be very durable.  It got really thin after 3 or so batches.    I ended up covering the whole thing in aluminum tape and it's held up much better. 

 

First time I tried the LoDo thing I did 2 sequential batches on the same day w/ the exact same recipe.   The first was my usual procedure, the second was Lodo.   Fermentation was the same.    I tapped both beers on the same day and the flavor difference was quite noticeable to everybody that tried the beers.  I ended up dumping half of the "old method" beer because it just didn't taste as good.        I think doing something like that is really the best way to prove to yourself that it's worth it.    I didn't need to prove it to anybody else, because I'm the one putting in the effort to make the beer and the one drinking most of it.  If I couldn't tell a difference myself after incorporating what seemed to be an adequate level of LoDo methods, then I wasn't going to keep doing it. 


Edited by pkrone, 12 December 2017 - 11:53 AM.


#76 HVB

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 12:13 PM

Sounds awesome.  I have enough gap in my mash cap to sneak little pipette in there and get samples for pH and brix.     I found the aluminum foil cover on my mash cap to not be very durable.  It got really thin after 3 or so batches.    I ended up covering the whole thing in aluminum tape and it's held up much better. 

 

First time I tried the LoDo thing I did 2 sequential batches on the same day w/ the exact same recipe.   The first was my usual procedure, the second was Lodo.   Fermentation was the same.    I tapped both beers on the same day and the flavor difference was quite noticeable to everybody that tried the beers.  I ended up dumping half of the "old method" beer because it just didn't taste as good.        I think doing something like that is really the best way to prove to yourself that it's worth it.    I didn't need to prove it to anybody else, because I'm the one putting in the effort to make the beer and the one drinking most of it.  If I couldn't tell a difference myself after incorporating what seemed to be an adequate level of LoDo methods, then I wasn't going to keep doing it. 

I do not expect the foil to last long but this will let me try it out this weekend.  If I continue with this I will look for a more permanent approach.  I need to dig into those spreadsheets but I will be honest they intimidate me a bit!

 

I would like to do back to back batches, I have fermenters opening at the moment but I am not sure I will be able to pull it off. 



#77 Big Nake

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 12:16 PM

The more I think about this the more I realize that I'm far more receptive to the idea of "process change" than I am "equipment change". I say that because all of my equipment is old and simple. Old-school 10-gallon cylinder cooler with a spigot, heat the strike water on the stove in a 5-gallon pot. Pour it into the MT. 10-gallon Polarware kettle. 25' stainless chiller. This is probably as good a time as any to examine this because I have a lot of beer in kegs and it might take me some time to draw up a plan for how to execute this. Drez, please let me know how you do the yeast & sugar trick on the water... I'll try that. I'll try the trifecta mix (I need the ascorbic acid), I'll transfer the water from pot to MT with hi-temp tubing, I'll build a mash cap, I'll recirc with a short length of tubing that I recently made and I'll see where that takes me.

#78 neddles

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 12:25 PM

I'll recirc with a short length of tubing that I recently made and I'll see where that takes me.

 

Doesn't that require a pump?



#79 Big Nake

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 12:38 PM

Doesn't that require a pump?

When I'm done with my mash I open the spigot on the MT into a measuring cup and then pour back into the MT (onto a pie tin type of thing so I don't disturb the grain bed) and I do that until I get clear wort. Then I attach a hose to the spigot and run off. But I made a piece of tubing about 8" long to connect to the spigot for the recirc part... so instead of the wort splashing into the cup it would run through the tubing and into the cup which I assume would help O2 pickup. I can't remember who suggested that but I did use it on a couple of batches but I wasn't doing any other low-O2 things so I stopped.

#80 neddles

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 12:48 PM

When I'm done with my mash I open the spigot on the MT into a measuring cup and then pour back into the MT (onto a pie tin type of thing so I don't disturb the grain bed) and I do that until I get clear wort. Then I attach a hose to the spigot and run off. But I made a piece of tubing about 8" long to connect to the spigot for the recirc part... so instead of the wort splashing into the cup it would run through the tubing and into the cup which I assume would help O2 pickup. I can't remember who suggested that but I did use it on a couple of batches but I wasn't doing any other low-O2 things so I stopped.

 

I would think the pouring it onto the pie tin at the top of the mash is going to pick up some O2. 

 

Also, I thought the idea of recircing a low-O2 mash was to recirc it during the mash to minimize stirring/splashing. That would (I think) also eliminate the need to recirculate after the mash is done and before runoff.




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