239 replies to this topic

[Big Nake]

I was driving home from an appointment today and started thinking about this. Since Denny said the solution was "easy" along with odorless, colorless and tasteless, I started thinking "CO2"! Purge your MT with CO2 prior to adding strike water (since CO2 is heavier than air), purge primary, secondaries, kegs, etc. along the way to keep all (or most) contact with the beer O2-free. Sounds like the Brewtan B could be an interesting concept but I would like to know what other O2-avoiding things should be done during the brewday (don't splash, don't stir vigorously, etc). Thanks.

[SchwanzBrewer]

CO2 won't blanket the mash like you think. It will mix with the air unless you can create a quiescent environment for it. You would constantly need to liberally apply CO2 during the mash mixing process and use a lot of it in order avoid mixing with air and oxygenating the wort.

 

Doesn't sound like that is easy or inexpensive. And considering Denny is the King of inexpensive brewing (sorta), I expect CO2 isn't the answer.

[denny]

I was driving home from an appointment today and started thinking about this. Since Denny said the solution was "easy" along with odorless, colorless and tasteless, I started thinking "CO2"! Purge your MT with CO2 prior to adding strike water (since CO2 is heavier than air), purge primary, secondaries, kegs, etc. along the way to keep all (or most) contact with the beer O2-free. Sounds like the Brewtan B could be an interesting concept but I would like to know what other O2-avoiding things should be done during the brewday (don't splash, don't stir vigorously, etc). Thanks.

 

Keep in mind that Brewtan B doesn't scavenge O2 or get rid of it.  It negates the reactions that O2 causes.  My understanding is that it won't matter if O2 is present because it won't react.  Like Rich says, CO2 won't form a blanket due to some physics law I can't remember the name of (Henry's Law?...damn, I hate getting old!) 

Edited by denny, 09 May 2016 - 01:15 PM.

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

I think you'd need nitrogen to blanket the mash.

[Mya]

tannic acid? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[positiveContact]

just grind up your husks?

[denny]

If it was that easy, I doubt one of the largest food companies in the world would be interested.  It's not just tannic acid.

[neddles]

not the same thing

[denny]

Keep in mind that there are lots of different tannins.  There are the ones you get from a decoction that can have a positive effect, and there are those you can get from too high a pH which can have a negative effect.

[Mya]

Keep in mind that there are lots of different tannins.  There are the ones you get from a decoction that can have a positive effect, and there are those you can get from too high a pH which can have a negative effect.

so i just can't dump in some nestea powder?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by miccullen, 09 May 2016 - 02:01 PM.

[Big Nake]

So can anyone determine how much Brewtan B to add to the mash water (I typically mash with 4.5 gallons and sparge with 3.5)? It said 1.5 to 5g per hectoliter which sounds like a wide gap. 1 gallon of water is .03 hectoliters. 4.5 gallons of water would be .135 hectoliters multiplied by 1.5 (grams) is about .2 grams in the mash which would be a REALLY small amount. Am I calcing this right? I see that Denny shows 1/4 tsp in the mash and 1/2 tsp diluted with water 15 mins before the end of the boil. The stuff is cheap enough to order two 50g packs right off the bat and save on subsequent shipping.

[Big Nake]

Not sure why this stuff is all over Australia and nowhere else but HERE is a place where the price is slightly higher but it's a 100g package and there is also a decent description of what it is and when and how to use it at the homebrewing level (1.5g mixed with water in the mash for a 20 liter batch and 1.5g again no more than 5 minutes from the end of the boil. So 3 grams per batch... you could make 33 batches of beer with one order and your cost would be 9.50 plus the $9000 shipping.

[Mya]

Not sure why this stuff is all over Australia and nowhere else but HERE is a place where the price is slightly higher but it's a 100g package and there is also a decent description of what it is and when and how to use it at the homebrewing level (1.5g mixed with water in the mash for a 20 liter batch and 1.5g again no more than 5 minutes from the end of the boil. So 3 grams per batch... you could make 33 batches of beer with one order and your cost would be 9.50 plus the $9000 shipping.

I checked out a supplier I've used before, $24 for 90 grams to the US.

[positiveContact]

just grind up your husks?

 

this was a joke.  just in case you guys couldn't tell

[Big Nake]

I checked out a supplier I've used before, $24 for 90 grams to the US.

Oh, I see the place I posted only allows shipping to Australia, India and Canada for some reason. So the place Denny posted earlier (iBrew) is still the only spot I see that will ship it here. I'm sure a domestic supply house will carry it eventually. So Denny... is it worth ordering some and trying? I realize there is testing to be done but do you envision any downside, side-effect, etc? Some of the things I see online mention that it's a clarifier and runoff-booster and potentially something that promotes higher yield. It doesn't really mention a lot about its O2-blocking performance. An interesting concept though and certainly easier than the SMB approach. Can we assume that since it's an acid that it would impact pH?

[positiveContact]

Oh, I see the place I posted only allows shipping to Australia, India and Canada for some reason. So the place Denny posted earlier (iBrew) is still the only spot I see that will ship it here. I'm sure a domestic supply house will carry it eventually. So Denny... is it worth ordering some and trying? I realize there is testing to be done but do you envision any downside, side-effect, etc? Some of the things I see online mention that it's a clarifier and runoff-booster and potentially something that promotes higher yield. It doesn't really mention a lot about its O2-blocking performance. An interesting concept though and certainly easier than the SMB approach. Can we assume that since it's an acid that it would impact pH?

 

just for future reference I think I'd refer to it as an antioxidant to avoid confusion.  that's what it sounds like it does anyway.

[denny]

so i just can't dump in some nestea powder?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Of course you can!  Assuming you want tea beer!

[denny]

Oh, I see the place I posted only allows shipping to Australia, India and Canada for some reason. So the place Denny posted earlier (iBrew) is still the only spot I see that will ship it here. I'm sure a domestic supply house will carry it eventually. So Denny... is it worth ordering some and trying? I realize there is testing to be done but do you envision any downside, side-effect, etc? Some of the things I see online mention that it's a clarifier and runoff-booster and potentially something that promotes higher yield. It doesn't really mention a lot about its O2-blocking performance. An interesting concept though and certainly easier than the SMB approach. Can we assume that since it's an acid that it would impact pH?

 

Ken, whether it's worth it is up to you.  To me, it would be, but I'm curious about stuff like that.  But at this point I have no personal experience to speak from.  I picked up 2 packs of WY2278 yesterday and I hope to make starters and brew back to beers next week.  German pils.  I do not envision any downsides, and I expect the pH impact to be minimal to none.  Keep in mind that there are BIG breweries already using it.  If it had a negative impact on the beer, I suspect that wouldn't be the case.

[Big Nake]

Ken, whether it's worth it is up to you.  To me, it would be, but I'm curious about stuff like that.  But at this point I have no personal experience to speak from.  I picked up 2 packs of WY2278 yesterday and I hope to make starters and brew back to beers next week.  German pils.  I do not envision any downsides, and I expect the pH impact to be minimal to none.  Keep in mind that there are BIG breweries already using it.  If it had a negative impact on the beer, I suspect that wouldn't be the case.

I have not brewed since all of this low-O2 talk has been stirred up. I'm curious to see if any of the pieces I have in place will have an impact and I think I may just order some of this to see what it does.

[denny]

Some interesting info showing up on the AHA forum....

 

"Upstream Beer Stabilisation during Wort Boiling by Addition of Gallotannins and/or PVPP"

"Addition of stabilisation products in the upstream brewing process is a very convenient way of physico-chemical stabilisation without the need for extra filtration or the risk of beer losses. Therefore, in this study the use of appropriate stabilisation products upstream the brewing process, more specifically at the end of wort boiling, have been evaluated in relation to improved colloidal stability. Applications of PVPP (Polyclar 10, ISP) and gallotannins (Beerotan Q, BFTI) have been investigated. The lowest gallotannin levels (wort boiling: 5 g/hL; contact time in boiling kettle: 3 minutes) are already sufficient to obtain enhanced stability due to adequate removal of haze- sensitive proteins. Furthermore, the addition of
10 g/hL PVPP has an explicit effect on the amounts of polyphenols, which results in an improved colloidal stability. Lowering pH at mashing-in also results in improved physico-chemical properties and flavour stability."

 

with a pKa of 10, tannic acid is quite weak. For reference, lactic acid has a pKa of ~1 and citric acid has a pKa of 3.1. A low pKa represents a strong acid with the really strong acids actually having negative pKa values (nitric acid is pKa = -1.4, HCl pKa = -4.1). Remember that the 'p' scale, whether talking pKa, pKb or pH is logarithmic. That's an enormous difference between tannic vs common acids used to manipulate pH in brewing.