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#1 BarelyBrews

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Posted 14 July 2015 - 10:05 AM

When i started adding Calcium Chloride to my brew water i had a lot of problems dissolving the Calcium Chloride, and even the gypsum seems to be harder to dissolve when dropped in a 6 gal pail.

 

Now, i put it in a food container with a few ounces of water and shake the heck out it. The pellets absorb nicely, and i add the liquid solution with the pellets gone. For me , i struggled with this for a while and i am sure it messed up my calcium numbers. And possibly changed my brews( some of the pellets would still be in my water addition buckets ).

 

Anyhow, for those that play with your water profile is this something you do?



#2 positiveContact

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Posted 14 July 2015 - 10:09 AM

I add salts to the strike water when it's hot and in the mash tun.  I then add the grain to the strike water.  in hot water it all seems to dissolve pretty much instantly.



#3 neddles

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Posted 14 July 2015 - 10:11 AM

When i started adding Calcium Chloride to my brew water i had a lot of problems dissolving the Calcium Chloride, and even the gypsum seems to be harder to dissolve when dropped in a 6 gal pail.

Now, i put it in a food container with a few ounces of water and shake the heck out it. The pellets absorb nicely, and i add the liquid solution with the pellets gone. For me , i struggled with this for a while and i am sure it messed up my calcium numbers. And possibly changed my brews( some of the pellets would still be in my water addition buckets ).

Anyhow, for those that play with your water profile is this something you do?

No, I just toss them in the mash water (full volume here if that matters). They are slow to go into solution but by the time my mash water is up to temp they have disappeared.

ETA: Also, I should say that I am dissolving them in RO water FWIW.

Edited by nettles, 14 July 2015 - 10:12 AM.


#4 HVB

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Posted 14 July 2015 - 10:11 AM

I tend to add it right on top of the mash, sometimes I will add the salts to the grain before crushing so it gets all mixed, and then just pour my strike water right on top of it.  I have not noticed any issues.



#5 denny

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Posted 14 July 2015 - 10:38 AM

Following Martin's instructions, I add it all to cold water before heating.  It all dissolves with no problems.



#6 SchwanzBrewer

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Posted 14 July 2015 - 10:41 AM

I've only ever added it while I mix the mash. I've never had pellets though, just powders.



#7 denny

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Posted 14 July 2015 - 11:18 AM

A couple tips from Martin about when to add stuff....

 

It does make a difference when you add any acid to brewing waters.  The alkalinity value that was reported for the tap water was measured in the water near room temperature.   As pointed out above, raising the temperature of water reduces the solubility of dissolved carbon dioxide in the water.  This decarbonates the water and converts alkalinity in the water (mainly bicarbonate) to undissolved chalk in the water and the carbon dioxide bubbles out of the water.  The alkalinity of heated water is reduced in comparison to its room-temperature alkalinity. 

Since acid additions are calculated based on that reported room-temperature alkalinity value, it is important that any acid dose calculated for that water be added prior to heating the water.  If the acid is added after the water is heated, the reduced alkalinity of the heated water means that too much acid will be added and the resulting brewing water alkalinity will be lower than predicted.  Add all acid to brewing water prior to heating in order to achieve the alkalinity targeted by brewing water calculations.  If acid must be added after the water has been heated, test the alkalinity of the heated water and use that new alkalinity to calculate the acid addition.
 
Gypsum is more soluble in cool to warm water (maximum gypsum solubility occurs at around 40C or 100F) and should be added to water prior to boiling for quicker dissolution.  Vigorous stirring is typically required to speed the gypsum dissolution.  If gypsum does not dissolve in a timely manner when added to water at less than 1.6 grams per liter, test the gypsum for the presence of chalk by adding an acid such as vinegar or lactic to the dry powder.  If the mixture 'fizzes', the gypsum is adulterated with chalk.


#8 positiveContact

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Posted 14 July 2015 - 11:29 AM

that is a little confusing on the acid front.  is he just saying you need to measure the water prior to heating it or that it actually matters when you add the acid?  and if the latter, why?  If I was using acid I wouldn't be taking any measurements of my source water - I'd be relying on the water report numbers and the prediction of bru'n water to tell me how much acid I need for the mash.

 

if a lot of stirring is required to get gypsum into solution I'm not sure what's going on with my setup.  even when the water is hot (160+F) it appears to dissolve right away.  same deal with calcium chloride.


Edited by Evil_Morty, 14 July 2015 - 11:30 AM.


#9 denny

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Posted 14 July 2015 - 11:55 AM

that is a little confusing on the acid front.  is he just saying you need to measure the water prior to heating it or that it actually matters when you add the acid?  and if the latter, why?  If I was using acid I wouldn't be taking any measurements of my source water - I'd be relying on the water report numbers and the prediction of bru'n water to tell me how much acid I need for the mash.

 

if a lot of stirring is required to get gypsum into solution I'm not sure what's going on with my setup.  even when the water is hot (160+F) it appears to dissolve right away.  same deal with calcium chloride.

 

He's saying that heating the water first can change the alkalinity value, so if you add acid after the water is heated you're adjusting for the wrong value.  At least that's how I understand it.  Iput all my mineral additions into unheated water and I can see that they've dissolved by the time the water heats up, so kinda like you.



#10 positiveContact

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Posted 14 July 2015 - 12:04 PM

He's saying that heating the water first can change the alkalinity value, so if you add acid after the water is heated you're adjusting for the wrong value.  At least that's how I understand it.

 

I still feel there is some ambiguity here so I'll try again.  (I annoy my friends and family with this stuff - why can't I just infer what they mean damnit!)

 

Will you end up with a different result if all other things being equal you added X mL of lactic to cold strike water versus hot strike water?  I would have thought that it did not matter but that quote from Martin you posted had me wondering.



#11 neddles

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Posted 14 July 2015 - 12:08 PM

...and what happens when you add the acid malt after the water has been heated, which would be normal for most people?

#12 positiveContact

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Posted 14 July 2015 - 12:11 PM

...and what happens when you add the acid malt after the water has been heated, which would be normal for most people?

 

how would you add acid malt before the water is heated?  do people start with a cold mash and then warm it up?  never heard of that practice.



#13 neddles

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Posted 14 July 2015 - 12:15 PM

how would you add acid malt before the water is heated? do people start with a cold mash and then warm it up? never heard of that practice.

You normally dont. Thats why I am asking... The acid goes in hot contrary to Martins recommendation.

#14 denny

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Posted 14 July 2015 - 12:19 PM

I still feel there is some ambiguity here so I'll try again.  (I annoy my friends and family with this stuff - why can't I just infer what they mean damnit!)

 

Will you end up with a different result if all other things being equal you added X mL of lactic to cold strike water versus hot strike water?  I would have thought that it did not matter but that quote from Martin you posted had me wondering.

 

According to what Martin has discussed in the AHA forum, yes, you will.  which doesn't discount the possibility that I misunderstood.


You normally dont. Thats why I am asking... The acid goes in hot contrary to Martins recommendation.

 

I don't know.  I do know that like myself, Martin isn't a fan of acid malt.  we both feel that just using acid is a much better way to go.



#15 neddles

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Posted 14 July 2015 - 12:21 PM

According to what Martin has discussed in the AHA forum, yes, you will. which doesn't discount the possibility that I misunderstood.


I don't know. I do know that like myself, Martin isn't a fan of acid malt. we both feel that just using acid is a much better way to go.

totally agree. I just use acid myself. What I am wondering is if this could explain some of the unpredictability/inconsistancy people have experienced with acid malt.

#16 BarelyBrews

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Posted 14 July 2015 - 01:30 PM

I am glad i add mine to cold water than. Thanks Denny.



#17 positiveContact

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Posted 14 July 2015 - 01:36 PM

well whenever I get my hands on some lactic acid I guess I'll be adding it to the cold strike water.



#18 matt6150

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Posted 14 July 2015 - 06:01 PM

Well interesting info. Back with my old system I always added salts into cold water and the acid into the hot mash when striking in. But I was always heating up only the amount of water I needed for the mash. Nowadays with my new system I heat up 20gal of water right off the bat no matter what(for 10gal). So I just add salts to my grains when I crack them. And sparge salts get added into the kettle. Using both systems I have always used bru'n water to tell me what to add. Like Evil this has me wondering. I'm having a hard time seeing how this matters if you are adding the same X amount of lactic acid being hot or cold water. And what do you do if the mash ph is off and now you have to add some acid to the mash? How will that affect the alkalinity? Ultimately if your mash ph checks out good then all is well correct?



#19 neddles

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Posted 14 July 2015 - 06:31 PM

Ultimately if you are at your desired pH it doesn't matter. What he is saying is that you will lose some alkalinity when you heat the water. Simplified from Martin's explanation above, this happens by the same process as the breweries that boil their water once prior to using it for alkalinity reduction purposes. Only in our case, heating just to mash temp will have a greatly diminished (although, apparently significant) effect compared to boiling WRT alkalinity reduction. If you add the same amount of acid to water that was heated and lost some alkalinity then you may be adding too much acid at that point. If you have determined you need acid in the mash then go ahead and add it.

 

I do remember reading somewhere (and it may justify some googling) that you don't want to leave your CaCl2 exposed to air for very long before using it. IIRC it reacts with the humidity in the air to change somehow... and that's where my memory of it ends. Maybe one of the more chemistry friendly guys here can clarify that but I thought it was worth mentioning.



#20 positiveContact

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Posted 15 July 2015 - 03:37 AM

so heating water has a limited ability to drop pH and adding acid has a somewhat "unlimited" ability?





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