25 replies to this topic

[Big Nake]

Gang: We're having a discussion about Dortmunder over on NB and for kicks, I was listening to the Brewing Network's show (recorded live at NHC in Philly last year) on Dortmunder and during the second half of the show, Jamil and Tasty start talking about a shortened lager process where someone had 25-30 gallons of wort and fermented them on different schedules and they said that they found that you could make a lager in 2 weeks (from grain to glass) and that they compared the 2-week version to the others that went 5 or 6 weeks and many preferred the 2-week version. Something about starting at 55° until 50% done, then 58° until 75% done and then 60+° for the rest of the time and when it was done, force carb it and drink it. They didn't really go into a lot more detail than that because this was not a "lager process" show... it was a Dortmunder show. But they also said something like "a 4-week long fermentation is never a good thing" and I admit that I have left lagers in primary that long or close to it. Anyone have any experience with this or want to poke holes in it? I found it pretty interesting. Oh... and no mention of a "lager phase" in any of this. Ferment for 2 weeks, force carb and drink.

[Big Nake]

I listened to the rest of this and towards the end, someone asks why someone would ferment a lager over such a long time and store it, etc. and Jamil basically said that this is traditionally the way the Germans made beer (fermenting in the winter and storing the lager in caves with ice cut from the river) and that it was tradition... but not really necessary. This is the first time I have ever heard anyone say that a lager doesn't need any amount of cold storage after it's fermented. My mind is blown.

[SchwanzBrewer]

I doubt bmc is lagered very long

[Big Nake]

I doubt bmc is lagered very long

Well. That would be a bad example, generally. I know for sure that many, many lager brewers say that there must be a lager period at 35° for 8-12 weeks, etc. and I had never heard anyone go against that thinking. Now I'm not saying that there isn't more to this but it's interesting because I have mentioned before that I have made lagers that only sat for a couple of weeks and then there were some that I lagered for 3-4 months and I didn't really notice much difference.

[Dave McG]

I've never brewed a lager. The closest I've come is a Kolsch that I poured about 30 seconds ago. That being said, it doesn't surprise me one bit that with modern refrigeration, better yeast handling, and better ingredients, we have options that brewers of long ago didn't have. Many brewer also are fans of tradition, of following methods not because they are the best, but because they feel there is a true or proper way to do something. There are devotees of the strictest sense of real ales. The name Kolsch should be restricted to certain breweries. These are restrictions imposed by people. They may or may not aid in producing a better beer. There are times to respect tradition and there are times to follow your tastebuds.

[Clintama]

Based on my experience, I can't see that temp makes a lot of difference (50F vs. 33F), but time does.

[neddles]

I heard that show too a while back and thought it was interesting. When they talk about a 4 wk. fermentation though I think they literally meant 4 wks. to reach TG. I would assume this is not the case with your beer Ken and that your just letting it sit there until you get to it. I also heard them discuss this on another show (cant remember which one) and how Tasty was turning around his lagers so fast with a specific fermentation protocol AND a filter. He talkes about it in this thread. https://www.thebrewi...t=21424&start=8There was someone on this board, I cant remember who (Brauer, maybe?) talking about how there is no reason a lager should take any longer than an ale if fermented appropriately and he even mentioned that he turns his lagers around quickly. It was a good while back so I think it would take some digging to find.

[HVB]

I recently had a helles bock that was brewed with the tasty method. I tried it at three weeks and it was excellent. We had a guy there who just came back from Germany as part of his Sibel program and compared it to beers over there. I am not sure if the method played a big role or the brewer but I asked him for the recipe and process to give it a try.

[Brauer]

I heard that show too a while back and thought it was interesting. When they talk about a 4 wk. fermentation though I think they literally meant 4 wks. to reach TG. I would assume this is not the case with your beer Ken and that your just letting it sit there until you get to it. I also heard them discuss this on another show (cant remember which one) and how Tasty was turning around his lagers so fast with a specific fermentation protocol AND a filter. He talkes about it in this thread. https://www.thebrewi...t=21424&start=8There was someone on this board, I cant remember who (Brauer, maybe?) talking about how there is no reason a lager should take any longer than an ale if fermented appropriately and he even mentioned that he turns his lagers around quickly. It was a good while back so I think it would take some digging to find.

When I read the OP, I thought I had talked about this here before.

 

Yes, this is essentially the temperature schedule I follow, though I usually start at 48-50 F and my process takes longer than 2 weeks because I usually naturally carbonate. Because of that, it still usually still takes me 5-6 weeks to get beer in the glass after allowing the beer to drop clear for maybe a week (that's all I usually lager, unless the beer is stubborn to clear).   I've probably managed to turn a finished lager around in 4 weeks, when the stars have aligned, so, I can't vouch for finished beer in 2 weeks, but the beer tastes great at 2 weeks and doesn't taste like it needs lagering.

 

I have heard that this is the method used by a lot of German breweries to get beer to tap more quickly, in an attempt to preserve freshness.

[positiveContact]

When I read the OP, I thought I had talked about this here before.

 

Yes, this is essentially the temperature schedule I follow, though I usually start at 48-50 F and my process takes longer than 2 weeks because I usually naturally carbonate. Because of that, it still usually still takes me 5-6 weeks to get beer in the glass after allowing the beer to drop clear for maybe a week (that's all I usually lager, unless the beer is stubborn to clear).   I've probably managed to turn a finished lager around in 4 weeks, when the stars have aligned, so, I can't vouch for finished beer in 2 weeks, but the beer tastes great at 2 weeks and doesn't taste like it needs lagering.

 

I have heard that this is the method used by a lot of German breweries to get beer to tap more quickly, in an attempt to preserve freshness.

 

none of the links will work for me for some reason.  can you break down your ferm schedule for me?  also - how do you know when you've hit the various levels of attenuation?  do you just estimate it or do you take gravity readings?  i usually try to avoid taking more than one gravity reading just to limit O2 exposure as much as I can.

[positiveContact]

Based on my experience, I can't see that temp makes a lot of difference (50F vs. 33F), but time does.

 

a big part of the lagering process is getting all the yeast to drop out.  colder def helps there.

[Big Nake]

I heard that show too a while back and thought it was interesting. When they talk about a 4 wk. fermentation though I think they literally meant 4 wks. to reach TG. I would assume this is not the case with your beer Ken and that your just letting it sit there until you get to it. I also heard them discuss this on another show (cant remember which one) and how Tasty was turning around his lagers so fast with a specific fermentation protocol AND a filter. He talkes about it in this thread. https://www.thebrewi...t=21424&start=8There was someone on this board, I cant remember who (Brauer, maybe?) talking about how there is no reason a lager should take any longer than an ale if fermented appropriately and he even mentioned that he turns his lagers around quickly. It was a good while back so I think it would take some digging to find.

You're right... I occasionally leave lagers in primary for 3+, approaching 4 weeks but I'm sure the beer was done by then. Also, I remember back when I was lucky enough to be drinking beer with Greg Noonan at his brewery in VT and he asked me, "Why do so many homebrewers think it takes a long time to make lagers? If you do things properly, a lager fermentation shouldn't take that long... all of these homebrewers are leaving their lagers in primary for far too long!". I'm paraphrasing but he was on this kick and I didn't think I understood at the time. If you ferment cool (let's just say 2 weeks) and then d-rest it which might remove diacetyl but also other things like sulphury flavors and then let it settle in a secondary for 1 week, keg it, chill it, force-carb it over 2 days and serve it... does it NOT need lengthy cold storage time? That was always suggested as REQUIRED, not just pesky tradition.

[Brauer]

can you break down your ferm schedule for me? also - how do you know when you've hit the various levels of attenuation? do you just estimate it or do you take gravity readings?

I estimate. I'm doing a few days cold, until it's fermenting well, then moving it to mid 50's for a couple days, then to the low 60's before active fermentation stops, so that fermentation can finish warm, since this is what is supposed to clean it up. Some that use this technique do an additional step up to ~70 F.You'll never turn it around in 2 weeks without filtering, I'd think.

Edited by Brauer, 21 January 2014 - 08:21 AM.

[SchwanzBrewer]

Add some biofine or gel and drop it clear in a couple days.

[positiveContact]

I estimate. I'm doing a few days cold, until it's fermenting well, then moving it to mid 50's for a couple days, then to the low 60's before active fermentation stops, so that fermentation can finish warm, since this is what is supposed to clean it up. Some that use this technique do an additional step up to ~70 F.You'll never turn it around in 2 weeks without filtering, I'd think.

 

i'm fine with that.  after the low 60s i'd cold crash it for a couple of days and then keg it.  it would be a little bit yeasty at first but that would eventually settle out.

[Big Nake]

Add some biofine or gel and drop it clear in a couple days.

Agreed. But if the beer had a pesky haze, I might wait until I got the beer cold and add the gel then. I just kegged, chilled and carbed up a beer that was made with 100% Vienna malt and it was crystal clear going into the keg. But I imagined that it might haze over so I hit it with gel solution (for a 2nd time) in the keg with the hopes it would get the beer clearer.

[HVB]

Agreed. But if the beer had a pesky haze, I might wait until I got the beer cold and add the gel then. I just kegged, chilled and carbed up a beer that was made with 100% Vienna malt and it was crystal clear going into the keg. But I imagined that it might haze over so I hit it with gel solution (for a 2nd time) in the keg with the hopes it would get the beer clearer.

 Biofine in a keg before racking and you will have clear beer in a day ..

[Big Nake]

Biofine in a keg before racking and you will have clear beer in a day ..

Hmm. What is this biofine you speak of? I have never used it. Is it the Whirfloc of Irish Mosses? Gel has always done a nice job but when it comes to clarity, I would definitely try something new just to see how it works. Is it easier or harder to prepare than gel? 

[HVB]

Hmm. What is this biofine you speak of? I have never used it. Is it the Whirfloc of Irish Mosses? Gel has always done a nice job but when it comes to clarity, I would definitely try something new just to see how it works. Is it easier or harder to prepare than gel? 

https://www.williams...LEAR-P2699.aspx

 

I  use it because I am lazy and it is easy.  I add 2 tablespoons to a keg before I rack ( for an IPA).  Rack on top and in a day it will be clear.  The first pint get dumped.

[BlKtRe]

https://www.williams...LEAR-P2699.aspx

 

I  use it because I am lazy and it is easy.  I add 2 tablespoons to a keg before I rack ( for an IPA).  Rack on top and in a day it will be clear.  The first pint get dumped.

 

I've read that silicon dioxide can remove bitterness in wine. Have you noticed any changes in projected bitterness levels using Biofine in your IpA? I can get Kieselsol on our grain buys which is another branded name for silicon dioxide but have been hesitant to try it.