23 replies to this topic

[3rd party JKor]

I just recently got my first water report back, so I'm itching to try to adjust my water. I'm brewing a Blond Ale in a few days, so it seems like a perfect opportunity to do so. I've been playing with Palmer's spreadsheet and nomograph. Based on my water profile it looks like my residual alkalinity (RA) is a bit high for really light beers. The Blond Ale has an anticipated SRM of 3.6.My key numbers are:Ca: 22 ppmMg: 3 ppmNa: 21Alkalinity as CaCO3: 42Cl: 44Sulfate: 4That gives me an RA of 25. My target RA is approx. -60.Using the spreadsheet, on a per gallon basis, I've added:0.65g CaSO40.85g CaCl0.40g MgSO4which results in the following profile:Ca: 122 ppm Mg: 13 ppm Na: 21 Alkalinity as CaCO3: 42 Cl: 152 Sulfate: 141 The RA is -53.I think I'm within the accepted range for all the compounds. My Cl:SO4 ratio is in the 'balanced' region, which I think is right for this style. Any comments or suggestions from seasoned water adjusters?

[MtnBrewer]

I think your adjusted water looks fine. If it was me, I'd have gone with the simpler approach of just using CaCl₂. You don't really need the sulfate from gypsum in this beer and magnesium isn't all that useful other than as a yeast nutrient. But as far as I can tell, that should work. [Note that I didn't actually run the spreadsheet...I'm assuming you know how to drive Excel.]

[BrewerGeorge]

I think your adjusted water looks fine. If it was me, I'd have gone with the simpler approach of just using CaCl₂. You don't really need the sulfate from gypsum in this beer and magnesium isn't all that useful other than as a yeast nutrient. But as far as I can tell, that should work. [Note that I didn't actually run the spreadsheet...I'm assuming you know how to drive Excel.]

I agree.I've gotten to the point with that spreadsheet that I only add salts for their "spice" effect. Sulfates to accentuate hops, for instance. If I just need to lighten the color, I usually just add lactic acid.

[3rd party JKor]

I think your adjusted water looks fine. If it was me, I'd have gone with the simpler approach of just using CaCl₂. You don't really need the sulfate from gypsum in this beer and magnesium isn't all that useful other than as a yeast nutrient. But as far as I can tell, that should work. [Note that I didn't actually run the spreadsheet...I'm assuming you know how to drive Excel.]

Yeah, I think you're probably right on the magnesium. I was just having fun with the spreadsheet...and Excel is my beeyotch.The reason I broke up the calcium addition between CaSO4 and CaCl was to get the chloride:sulfate ratio "balanced". My water has 44 ppm chloride and 4 ppm sulfate (which probably explains why the hoppiness in my IPA's has been less than stellar). I'm going by Palmer's recommendation on the chloride:sulfate ratio. According to his spreadsheet, the cl:so4 ratio for my adjusted water is "balanced". Which, to me, seems like the right place to start for a Blond.

[chuck_d]

I have essentially no magnesium in my water, so I add epsom salt to bring it up to ~11ppm (10-30 is the usual range I see suggested). Other than that, it's not as powerful as calcium for playing with RA and Ca is needed for assisting with mash enzymes and the like. I actually need to raise my calcium up too, so I usually work with gypsum and calcium chloride as I try to keep my Cl/SO4 balanced. If I'm looking for a malty or bitter beer sometimes I'll let that slip out of balance. I don't use Palmer's SS anymore though

[Humperdink]

Is there a volume= weight ratio for the brewing salts? I don't have my accurate gram scale yet but need to increase my calcium to >50ppmBy the way JK, I'd go balanced as well.and chuck I heard/read you get all the magnesium you need from your malt bill so there really is no need to add it.

[3rd party JKor]

Is there a volume= weight ratio for the brewing salts? I don't have my accurate gram scale yet but need to increase my calcium to >50ppmBy the way JK, I'd go balanced as well.and chuck I heard/read you get all the magnesium you need from your malt bill so there really is no need to add it.

You can get a rough volume to weight conversion if you know the density of the salt and the packing factor. Someone out there has probably already done these calcs, but it's only an approximation. It's dependent on the crystalline structure of the salt, the particle size distribution and the intrinsic density of the salt. Also, hydrates can affect the density of some salts, CaCl2 has several hydrates which have different densities.

[chuck_d]

Is there a volume= weight ratio for the brewing salts? I don't have my accurate gram scale yet but need to increase my calcium to >50ppmBy the way JK, I'd go balanced as well.and chuck I heard/read you get all the magnesium you need from your malt bill so there really is no need to add it.

I'd be weary of any volume measurements for your salts. Even when doing my 10 gallon batches they are pretty small, not to mention my salts clump together a little bit, especially the epsom. I'm a big advocate of weights for solids in general rather than volumes, it's amazing how many people and beginners references talk about volume of priming sugar rather than weight.As for Mg from malts, I think I've seen that written in places too, but not certain where. I'm not at home right now so I don't have my materials in front of me, but I'm cool with adding a few ppm to help out.

[3rd party JKor]

As for Mg from malts, I think I've seen that written in places too, but not certain where. I'm not at home right now so I don't have my materials in front of me, but I'm cool with adding a few ppm to help out.

In the Water episodes on Brew Strong, Palmer mentions that no additional magnesium is necessary, due to the Mg content of the malt. But, I've also seen 10-30 as a typical range. It probably doesn't matter one way or the other, as long as you're not jacking it way up.

[chuck_d]

In the Water episodes on Brew Strong, Palmer mentions that no additional magnesium is necessary, due to the Mg content of the malt. But, I've also seen 10-30 as a typical range. It probably doesn't matter one way or the other, as long as you're not jacking it way up.

Which is why I follow the Spinal Tap approach and go all the way to 11.

[MtnBrewer]

Is there a volume= weight ratio for the brewing salts? I don't have my accurate gram scale yet but need to increase my calcium to >50ppm

It's well worth the $10 to have a gram scale.

[Humperdink]

It's well worth the $10 to have a gram scale.

Jsut bought one today actually

[3rd party JKor]

Here's a question for all you salt users: How do you know what the hydrate levels of your salts are? In Palmer's spreadsheet he lists Gypsum as CaSO4*2H2O, Calcium Chloride as CaCl2*2H2O, Epsom Salt as MgSO4*7H2O and chalk and baking soda as anhydrous. I'm assuming these are the most common hydrates for the salts, but how do you really know what you're getting?EDIT: Well, Wikipedia told me part of the answer. Gypsum and Epsom Salt are defined as have 2 and 7 hydrates, respectively. I still don't see anything specifically about what hydrate level is typical for CaCl2.

Edited by JKoravos, 19 August 2009 - 01:50 PM.

[stellarbrew]

Here's a question for all you salt users: How do you know what the hydrate levels of your salts are? In Palmer's spreadsheet he lists Gypsum as CaSO4*2H2O, Calcium Chloride as CaCl2*2H2O, Epsom Salt as MgSO4*7H2O and chalk and baking soda as anhydrous. I'm assuming these are the most common hydrates for the salts, but how do you really know what you're getting?EDIT: Well, Wikipedia told me part of the answer. Gypsum and Epsom Salt are defined as have 2 and 7 hydrates, respectively. I still don't see anything specifically about what hydrate level is typical for CaCl2.

What would be the potential error you could introduce from neglecting to account for hydrates in your salts? What I'm wondering is whether the uncertainty in salt concentrations between your water analysis and the water you use on brew day might be significant enough that accounting for hydrates might be overkill. Maybe like measuriing with a micrometer and cutting with an axe (or maybe more like measuring with a limb and cutting with a laser). I'm not saying that's the case, just wondering.

[Thirsty]

Which is why I follow the Spinal Tap approach and go all the way to 11.

BUt what about the ones that stop at 10. Cant you just turn them all the way up?

[stellarbrew]

BUt what about the ones that stop at 10. Cant you just turn them all the way up?

This one goes to 11.

[3rd party JKor]

What would be the potential error you could introduce from neglecting to account for hydrates in your salts? What I'm wondering is whether the uncertainty in salt concentrations between your water analysis and the water you use on brew day might be significant enough that accounting for hydrates might be overkill. Maybe like measuriing with a micrometer and cutting with an axe (or maybe more like measuring with a limb and cutting with a laser). I'm not saying that's the case, just wondering.

Well, in terms of CaCl2, the molecular weight of the anhydrous is 111 g/mol and the molecular weight of the dihydrate is 147 g/mol. If you put 1 gram of anhydrous CaCl2 in your mash you'd be adding 360 mg of Ca and 640 mg Cl. If you put 1 gram of dihydrate CaCl2 in your mash you'd be adding 272 mg of Ca and 483 mg Cl. That's a 25% discrepancy.

[Winkydowbrewing]

Just speed it up an octave.

[BrewerGeorge]

Well, in terms of CaCl2, the molecular weight of the anhydrous is 111 g/mol and the molecular weight of the dihydrate is 147 g/mol. If you put 1 gram of anhydrous CaCl2 in your mash you'd be adding 360 mg of Ca and 640 mg Cl. If you put 1 gram of dihydrate CaCl2 in your mash you'd be adding 272 mg of Ca and 483 mg Cl. That's a 25% discrepancy.

CaCl2 is a bit of a special case because it's so hydrophyllic. It's been my experience that if you leave it unsealed and exposed to just regular humidity it will be a solution when you go back to it. I just keep it sealed and assume it's anhydrous.

[3rd party JKor]

CaCl2 is a bit of a special case because it's so hydrophyllic. It's been my experience that if you leave it unsealed and exposed to just regular humidity it will be a solution when you go back to it. I just keep it sealed and assume it's anhydrous.

Yeah, I read that it's used as a desiccant and eating pure anhydrous CaCl2 can burn you because the adsorption of water is so exothermic.I wonder if you can completely dry it via baking?