75 replies to this topic

[denny]

Correct. However lately (like in the last couple of brews) I've been adding baking soda in addition to the gypsum and CaCl2 to raise the alkalinity and prevent the mash pH from being too low. This was recommended in Water. I'm using Bru'nWater to do those calculations for me.I don't see how adding sulfate would change the pH in any way.

 

Oh, it definitely changes the pH.  IIRC, it is the calcium.

Edited by denny, 20 November 2013 - 09:56 AM.

[Brauer]

Wouldn't adding that much sulfate to your wort bring your wort pH to a very low level?

It will depend on the recipe and the mash thickness, of course, but you can add an awfully lot of CaSO₄ to an all base malt beer without dropping the pH too low. Especially if you are trying to make a beer with a dry finish.  

 

Malt color and quantity have big effects, so on a very pale IPA you might be able to add all that CaSO₄ to the mash without it going below 5.2.

[positiveContact]

It will depend on the recipe and the mash thickness, of course, but you can add an awfully lot of CaSO₄ to an all base malt beer without dropping the pH too low. Especially if you are trying to make a beer with a dry finish.  

 

Malt color and quantity have big effects, so on a very pale IPA you might be able to add all that CaSO₄ to the mash without it going below 5.2.

 

on my upcoming IPAs I could add 2oz of gypsum (10 gallon batches) without getting below 5.2.  i hesitate slightly b/c I like to give myself a little wiggle room and not do anything where the prediction puts me below 5.3 in the mash.  i have no problem adding more to the kettle after though.

[positiveContact]

Well obviously it isn't the sulfate so if gypsum lowers wort pH then calcium lowers wort pH. So you do have an idea after all. What is the mechanism for that reaction? Is it the same as in the mash?

 

i've never thought too much about how the molecule interacts.  i just follow rules, gpysum lower pH, calcium chloride lowers pH, chalk and baking soda raise it.  i didn't know if pure calcium was the same as calcium with sulfate already bonded together.  i repeat - i have not thought about it so be gentle

Edited by TheGuv, 20 November 2013 - 11:21 AM.

[MtnBrewer]

i've never thought too much about how the molecule interacts.  i just follow rules, gpysum lower pH, calcium chloride lowers pH, chalk and baking soda raise it.  i didn't know if pure calcium was the same as calcium with sulfate already bonded together.  i repeat - i have not thought about it so be gentle

Sorry I wasn't clear. I didn't mean pure calcium, I meant calcium ions. What I wasn't sure of was whether the reaction that causes calcium to lower pH in the mash also did the same thing in the kettle.

[neddles]

Sorry I wasn't clear. I didn't mean pure calcium, I meant calcium ions. What I wasn't sure of was whether the reaction that causes calcium to lower pH in the mash also did the same thing in the kettle.

I wondered too. But Chris Colby says it does here.

https://beerandwinej...proper-boil-ph/

[MtnBrewer]

I wondered too. But Chris Colby says it does here.https://beerandwinej...proper-boil-ph/

Good link, thanks. This is the part I wasn't sure about:

The same chemical reactions, primarily between calcium and phosphates, that help a brewer establish the correct mash pH can also help him or her establish the proper boil pH.

I wasn't sure that the phosphates were still present in the boil.

[positiveContact]

does the boil pH differ that much from the mash pH if you don't add anything to the sparge water?

[Big Nake]

I missed some of this but yes, CaCl₂ and gypsum both lower pH so I was just curious about the addition of 40 grams (in however much water) of gypsum and what affect that would have on the pH of the wort in the boil.  I see Brauer explained that it could potentially be okay and not lower the wort pH below 5.2 which is good to know.  Again, I don't know the impact of the mash or preboil wort pH being too low... most people cover this from the angle of being too high.

[Brauer]

Again, I don't know the impact of the mash or preboil wort pH being too low... most people cover this from the angle of being too high.

https://www.weyerman...ash-pH_2010.pdf

This presentation from Weyermann is a decent summary of some of the effects of different mash pHs. 

 

It also has an interesting summary of common finished beer pHs.

[positiveContact]

https://www.weyerman...ash-pH_2010.pdf

This presentation from Weyermann is a decent summary of some of the effects of different mash pHs. 

 

It also has an interesting summary of common finished beer pHs.

 

https://www.weyerman...ash-pH_2010.pdf

This presentation from Weyermann is a decent summary of some of the effects of different mash pHs. 

 

It also has an interesting summary of common finished beer pHs.

 

is there a way to predict finished beer pH?

[positiveContact]

brauer - why are those mash pH numbers so low for a lot of the styles?  i've never gone below 5.2!

 

Czech Pilsner and Bock pH 4.50 – 4.80Kölsch and Alt pH 4.15 - 4.40Bavarian Hefeweizen pH 4.10 – 4.40English Ales pH 4.00 – 4.20Lambic pH 3.40 – 3.90Gueuze and Framboise pH 3.30 – 4.50Berliner Weisse pH 3.20 - 3.40

[neddles]

is there a way to predict finished beer pH?

Not that I've ever read but would be interested to get Brauer's thoughts too. I don't see any reason some fine pH adjustments (with lactic/phosphoric or even sodium bicarb.) couldn't be made in the carboy or keg to suit the end users preference. I wonder if this is ever done professionally.

 

brauer - why are those mash pH numbers so low for a lot of the styles?  i've never gone below 5.2!

 

Czech Pilsner and Bock pH 4.50 – 4.80Kölsch and Alt pH 4.15 - 4.40Bavarian Hefeweizen pH 4.10 – 4.40English Ales pH 4.00 – 4.20Lambic pH 3.40 – 3.90Gueuze and Framboise pH 3.30 – 4.50Berliner Weisse pH 3.20 - 3.40

I think those are final beer pH's Guv.

[positiveContact]

I think those are final beer pH's Guv.

 

i would have guessed that had the title of the slide not said this:

 

Mash-pH Targets for aFew Classic EuropeanBeer Styles

[neddles]

i would have guessed that had the title of the slide not said this:

 

Mash-pH Targets for aFew Classic EuropeanBeer Styles

Then the title is wrong.

[MtnBrewer]

does the boil pH differ that much from the mash pH if you don't add anything to the sparge water?

The boil concentrates the wort so the pH goes down.

[positiveContact]

The boil concentrates the wort so the pH goes down.

 

ah - i was talking pre-boil.

[MtnBrewer]

ah - i was talking pre-boil.

Pre-boil it would be less concentrated thus higher pH. Assuming you didn't adjust the sparge water in any way. I acidify my sparge water when I fly sparge so that I don't have to worry about tannins.

[Brauer]

is there a way to predict finished beer pH?

 

 

Not that I've ever read but would be interested to get Brauer's thoughts too. I don't see any reason some fine pH adjustments (with lactic/phosphoric or even sodium bicarb.) couldn't be made in the carboy or keg to suit the end users preference. I wonder if this is ever done professionally.

 

I think those are final beer pH's Guv.

I have no idea how to predict beer pH, short of hitting mash and kettle pH, then having a healthy ferment.

 

i would have guessed that had the title of the slide not said this:

 

Mash-pH Targets for aFew Classic EuropeanBeer Styles

Those are definitely supposed to be final beer pH targets.  That's probably just a poorly phrased title.  Maybe it made some kind of sense when the guy presented it, but there are a couple other sloppy slides, too.

[Steve Urquell]

I had a discussion with AJ awhile ago about ion additions and how they lower pH. Calcium in the mash reacts with  phytin in malt. This allows the enzyme phytase to to dissociate  phytin into calcium, magnesium phosphates, and phytic acid which lowers mash pH. I believe the enzyme phytase is deactivated after the mash so the BK addition shouldn't affect pH too much (if any)

 

My discussion with AJ:

 

Me: Is it just in the mash that these salts will drop pH?

 

 

AJ: That is correct. The calcium and magnesium react with the phytins in the malt to create an acid that actually does the pH reduction. That does not apply in the sparge water or kettle. To acidify in those instances, you have to add an actual acid like phosphoric or lactic.