76 replies to this topic

[djinkc]

I haven't made one since I started brewing again.  Actually, probably never have.  Anyway I've got questions.  Where I want to end up is probably closest to a Gr. Pils  (2A).  Around 1.050 - 1.055, pushing 50 IBUs  with some flavor.

 

For grain I have Canada Malting Pils.  Hops - Mt Hood, Hersbrucker and Spalt.  I'm half tempted to throw a little 6-row in too (5%  ?).  I tasted some this spring (just the malted grain) and was pleasantly surprised.  Or I can skip it and go straight pils.

 

I guess my more important question is what yeast.  I'll be able to ferment cold and lager this one.  Any suggestions?  Feel free to throw darts at what I have so far.

[Big Nake]

I really like White Labs 830 for this and some say that Wyeast 2124 is the same yeast although 2124 is called "Bohemian" (suggesting Czech) and 830 is called "German" so go figure.  If you want German, I think you could just go all pilsner malt.  If I make a Czech Pilsner, I usually add a little Vienna or Munich too.  You could use the Mt. Hood but the Spalt and Hersbrucker would both be great.  The only real question is how to hop it and I will admit that 50 IBU is higher than I typically go.  So go with 7 or 8 AAU of something (Mt. Hood would be okay there) for 60 or 90 mins and then add some late Spalt and Hersbrucker to get you the rest of the IBUs.  Remember too... soft water is good for this style.

Edited by KenLenard, 13 November 2013 - 07:06 PM.

[Steve Urquell]

Mine's pretty close to Ken's. I would suggest using German pils malt though. I haven't been pleased with American malt for my German or Czech lagers.

 

Mine's something like;

84% Weyermann or Best Malz pils

8% Vienna

4% Carapils (or 2-3% Carared)

2% acid malt

 

32IBUs

.5-1oz spalt at 10mins

 

RO water:

25-30 ppm SO4 from gypsum

add enough calcium chloride to reach 50ppm calcium after the gypsum addition

Mash pH: 5.3

 Step infusion 140F/30mins, 158F/30mins

 

WLP 830 or W34/70 dry

Edited by chils, 13 November 2013 - 08:01 PM.

[Big Nake]

Many moons ago we were talking about the flavor you get from a good European gold beer.  There is a graininess and a grassiness (for lack of a better term) that just screams EUROPE to me.  I think that part of it is the use of good, fresh noble hops, especially late in the boil so you get a good hop flavor and aroma.  I also think that the malt is a part of that flavor.  I haven't used Canada Malting Pils so I don't know but when I make a beer like this where the malt may come into question, I almost always use Best Malz pilsner malt or maybe Weyermann or Durst Turbo Pils which I just recently ran out of.  I think there may be something subtle about these Euro malts that bring an authenticity to the beer just like any other style from England, Belgium or wherever.  Chil's use of acid malt could be another contributing factor to that flavor whether it be from malt or just the use of lactic acid... it suggests a mash pH on the low side which would bring that acid snap to the beer.  Chil's mash looks like a version of a Hochkurz mash I have used but the one I tried was 145x30 and 158-160x60.  I think the point is that the low end promotes fermentability while the high end promotes depth and maltiness.  That mash technique along with the proper mash pH is key to the style, I think.  The water is critical too.  It's a tough style to make but something I try to do every once in awhile.  Good luck with it. 

[Mya]

Many moons ago we were talking about the flavor you get from a good European gold beer.  There is a graininess and a grassiness (for lack of a better term) that just screams EUROPE to me.  I think that part of it is the use of good, fresh noble hops, especially late in the boil so you get a good hop flavor and aroma.  I also think that the malt is a part of that flavor.  I haven't used Canada Malting Pils so I don't know but when I make a beer like this where the malt may come into question, I almost always use Best Malz pilsner malt or maybe Weyermann or Durst Turbo Pils which I just recently ran out of.  I think there may be something subtle about these Euro malts that bring an authenticity to the beer just like any other style from England, Belgium or wherever.  Chil's use of acid malt could be another contributing factor to that flavor whether it be from malt or just the use of lactic acid... it suggests a mash pH on the low side which would bring that acid snap to the beer.  Chil's mash looks like a version of a Hochkurz mash I have used but the one I tried was 145x30 and 158-160x60.  I think the point is that the low end promotes fermentability while the high end promotes depth and maltiness.  That mash technique along with the proper mash pH is key to the style, I think.  The water is critical too.  It's a tough style to make but something I try to do every once in awhile.  Good luck with it. 

the Canada pils won't have that unique honeyesgue character you get from something like Best Maltz, close but not quite

[Brauer]

50 IBU does seem a little over the top. Jever is 40 IBU and it is the most bitter German Pilsner I've ever heard of.

[denny]

I've got a starter of WY2278 going for a German pils.  Either all Best pils, or maybe a lb. of Munich tossed in with it.  Any of the hops you listed will work well.  I prefer going to about 45 IBU, with 1 oz. of FWH as part of it.  I used WY2124 last lager season, but after comparing found I liked 2278 better.

[Mya]

I've got a starter of WY2278 going for a German pils.  Either all Best pils, or maybe a lb. of Munich tossed in with it.  Any of the hops you listed will work well.  I prefer going to about 45 IBU, with 1 oz. of FWH as part of it.  I used WY2124 last lager season, but after comparing found I liked 2278 better.

bookmarked

[Big Nake]

I like both of those yeasts very much and not sure which I like better.  2278 flocs like a mofo so you're more likely to get a nice clear, gold beer.  Denny, you're making a German Pils with 2278 "Czech" lager yeast?  Don't people over there have wars over things like this? 

[Mya]

I like both of those yeasts very much and not sure which I like better.  2278 flocs like a mofo so you're more likely to get a nice clear, gold beer.  Denny, you're making a German Pils with 2278 "Czech" lager yeast?  Don't people over there have wars over things like this? 

I like hybrid pils styles

[MtnBrewer]

I like hybrid pils styles

Last year I made a pilsner in the German style but with American hybrids of German hops (Vanguard, Santiam). Was really good and I'll probably do this again.Back to the original topic, DJ I'm going to differ from Ken on the water profile. In my German pilsners I like to add some gypsum to sharpen up the hops. For Czech pilsners I prefer softer water for a rounder, smoother hop bitterness but for the Germans I prefer more bite.

[denny]

I like both of those yeasts very much and not sure which I like better.  2278 flocs like a mofo so you're more likely to get a nice clear, gold beer.  Denny, you're making a German Pils with 2278 "Czech" lager yeast?  Don't people over there have wars over things like this? 

 

They may, but all I care about is results, not nationality!  When I looked back at my notes, I found that I preferred the G pils made with 2278 over 2124, although both were good.  Since I have a limited window to make lagers, I decided it was 2278 this year.  At some point, I'll probably crank up some 2206 also for bock and/or maibock.

[denny]

Back to the original topic, DJ I'm going to differ from Ken on the water profile. In my German pilsners I like to add some gypsum to sharpen up the hops. For Czech pilsners I prefer softer water for a rounder, smoother hop bitterness but for the Germans I prefer more bite.

 

Same here.

[djinkc]

Thanks for the tips.  I need to settle on a yeast and get it ordered.  And I may have to (gasp) take a look at my water profile.

[Mya]

Same here.

same

[positiveContact]

i may have to try 2278 for this years bo pils.  last time around was 2124 which I liked but I need to try more yeasts before I settle on just one.

 

ken, did you ever get to try staro-prague?  that made a fantastic lager.

[Deerslyr]

It's been so long since I've done a lager that that I could use a temperature timeline for the required/desired rests.  Do we have an FAQ on this?  And if not, can one of you experts write one up?  I ask because by the time I started lagering, I really didn't get that many batches in before I went on my brewing hiatus.  

[MtnBrewer]

It's been so long since I've done a lager that that I could use a temperature timeline for the required/desired rests.  Do we have an FAQ on this?  And if not, can one of you experts write one up?  I ask because by the time I started lagering, I really didn't get that many batches in before I went on my brewing hiatus.

It's not really much different than any other beer. Ferment til it's done, lager til it tastes like you want it to. Optionally you can raise the temperature at the end of primary to about 60-65 to finish it off prior to lagering.

[Big Nake]

i may have to try 2278 for this years bo pils.  last time around was 2124 which I liked but I need to try more yeasts before I settle on just one.

 

ken, did you ever get to try staro-prague?  that made a fantastic lager.

I tried Staro-Prague multiple times and I really like it.  Is it still considered a seasonal yeast?  I generally don't pay attention to the seasonal yeasts so I don't know when it's available and it's not around every year (I believe) so I never really know when it's available.  Is it out now??  Gimme!

Edited by KenLenard, 15 November 2013 - 03:43 PM.

[Steve Urquell]

It's been so long since I've done a lager that that I could use a temperature timeline for the required/desired rests.  Do we have an FAQ on this?  And if not, can one of you experts write one up?  I ask because by the time I started lagering, I really didn't get that many batches in before I went on my brewing hiatus.  

I've had good luck fermenting until airlock activity slows then unplugging my chamber and letting temp rise to ~65F for a few days, taste to make sure it has no diacetyl or acetaldehyde then start dropping temp 5°F per day until It's at 32°F.

 

At that point rack to secondary with gelatin or stir gelatin into primary (if not reusing yeast) and let it sit at 32°F until it clears. Usually 3-5 days. Some report good results racking straight to keg with gel, but I don't want gel in my keg.

 

After the beer is clear, rack to keg or bottle, carb the keg up as it lagers and sample until it tastes good to you. Bottles sit at room temp for 3 weeks then go in the fridge. Drink the hell out of it, rinse, repeat.