70 replies to this topic

[Brauer]

I'm confused. Are you all saying that the 2nd and 3rd runnings would have nearly if not the same gravity, or that the 2nd runnings would have the same gravity as the first runnings?

Neither. The second runnings will be the same gravity at 1.25 qt/# mash as 2 qt/# mash. The first will have much higher gravity, but much smaller volume, first runnings, though. For my system, either will have ~1.023 second runnings for a 1.048 post-boil wort. Third runnings will have a lower gravity than 2nd.

Expense of wort quality being more alpha rest via higher temps of the sparge (more dextrins and less fermentable wort)?

I consider an Alpha amylase rest and dextrins to be very desirable.Denny might be referring to the Hochkurz mash, maybe (?) There, the desire is to get the same result as a long mash in a short (~1 hour) mash. There is also an argument for a superior wort because less tannin will be extracted due to shorter exposure of wort to husks. Dextrin levels are usually controlled by the length of the beta amylase rest in a Hochkurz mash. Once the beta amylase rest is complete, you can probably let the alpha amylase rest go very long without a huge impact on the dextrin profile.

Edited by Brauer, 22 February 2013 - 04:46 PM.

[Clintama]

Neither. The second runnings will be the same gravity at 1.25 qt/# mash as 2 qt/# mash. The first will have much higher gravity, but much smaller volume, first runnings, though. For my system, either will have ~1.023 second runnings for a 1.048 post-boil wort. Third runnings will have a lower gravity than 2nd.

I'm not sure that it can be said, without caveats, that the gravities of a 1.25 qt/# mash will be the same as a 2 qt/# mash,

[Brauer]

I'm not sure that it can be said, without caveats, that the gravities of a 1.25 qt/# mash will be the same as a 2 qt/# mash,

The gravities of the mash will definitely be different. What Mtn is saying is that the gravity of the second runnings will be similar, and the math seems to say that they will be within a couple points.For the calculation, I'm assuming complete conversion of an identical grist and minimal dead volume. The thinner mash may convert more efficiently, which would change the gravity, and the larger the dead volume the less equal they will be because you leave a higher percentage of higher gravity wort behind with a thick mash.Those are all the caveats I could think of. Were you thinking of something else?

[Clintama]

After rereading this, I may have to agree with you, given the caveats you mentioned. If you top up the volume of the higher gravity (less volume) running to match the thinner one, the gravity should then be equal (approximately) to the other. Am I understanding you correctly?

[zymot]

:frantic:I think I heard Palmer in an interview say that HSA only occurs a little above 100*F. There is about a 10 degree window where a reaction can take place, but outside of it there isn't much chance of it being a problem.

I am convinced that HSA is the boogie man to home brewers. Seems like every time I see a commercial brewery in action on TV, they show hot wort getting splashed and treated with indifference to HSA.I got a tour at a microbrewery and they were showing me their process. When they showed where and how hot wort was getting transferred, I pointed out that some homebrewers would be going all Chicken Little over the HSA.The guide looked at me and thought about it for a moment, then recited the negative affects of HSA, wet cardboard, stale, etc. He said he has been brewing beer like that for 10 years, nobody has ever said his beer tastes like wet cardboard or stale.I think homebrewers should develop best practices that avoid inducing HSA, which is not hard to do. But do not get overly distracted by it.

[Clintama]

I am convinced that HSA is the boogie man to home brewers. Seems like every time I see a commercial brewery in action on TV, they show hot wort getting splashed and treated with indifference to HSA.I got a tour at a microbrewery and they were showing me their process. When they showed where and how hot wort was getting transferred, I pointed out that some homebrewers would be going all Chicken Little over the HSA.The guide looked at me and thought about it for a moment, then recited the negative affects of HSA, wet cardboard, stale, etc. He said he has been brewing beer like that for 10 years, nobody has ever said his beer tastes like wet cardboard or stale.I think homebrewers should develop best practices that avoid inducing HSA, which is not hard to do. But do not get overly distracted by it.

I'm sure it can be real, but more than anything, it's just another of the many brewing myths that place fear in brewers.

[Brauer]

After rereading this, I may have to agree with you, given the caveats you mentioned. If you top up the volume of the higher gravity (less volume) running to match the thinner one, the gravity should then be equal (approximately) to the other. Am I understanding you correctly?

I'm not quite clear what you are describing. It sounds like you might be talking about taking the first runnings and adding water to them in the kettle. Those will be different because you've left the same volume behind in the grain, in each case, but the thicker mash would have left higher gravity wort. For example, a 2 qt/# mash will pull 68% of the sugars from 10# of grain in the first runnings, but for a 1.25 qt/# mash it will be 52%.What I am discussing is pulling the first runnings, then adding the sparge water to the same final kettle volume. If you measure the sparge water gravity, it should be approximately the same (+/- 1 or 2 OG) in each case. This is diluting out the higher gravity wort absorbed by the grain with more water, in the thicker mash, or the lower gravity wort absorbed by the grain with less water in the thinner mash.That gravity will start to diverge more substantially as you get to more extreme mash thicknesses. That's where you would also start to see your lauter efficiency really start to drop due to unequal runnings, too.

[Clintama]

As long as you are accounting for the volume differences with respect to their gravities, I guess we're in agreement. "The second runnings will be the same gravity at 1.25 qt/# mash as 2 qt/# mash.That's the statement I'm trying to wrap my brain around.

[Brauer]

As long as you are accounting for the volume differences with respect to their gravities, I guess we're in agreement. "The second runnings will be the same gravity at 1.25 qt/# mash as 2 qt/# mash.That's the statement I'm trying to wrap my brain around.

Assuming no dead volume and 100% conversion,Mash 10# of grain with 3 1/8 gallon, for 1.25 qt/#:- drain 1.9 gal of 1.095 wort- add 5.1 gallon of sparge water, which should come to 1.024- drain for a total of 7 gallons at 1.044, pre-boil, and 86% mash efficiency.or, mash 10 # with 5 gallons, for 2 qt/#:- drain 3.8 gallons of 1.063 wort- add 3.2 gallons of sparge water, which should come to 1.023- drain for a total of 7 gallons at 1.045, pre-boil, and 88% mash efficiency.

[Clintama]

Assuming no dead volume and 100% conversion,Mash 10# of grain with 3 1/8 gallon, for 1.25 qt/#:- drain 1.9 gal of 1.095 wort- add 5.1 gallon of sparge water, which should come to 1.024- drain for a total of 7 gallons at 1.044, pre-boil, and 86% mash efficiency.or, mash 10 # with 5 gallons, for 2 qt/#:- drain 3.8 gallons of 1.063 wort- add 3.2 gallons of sparge water, which should come to 1.023- drain for a total of 7 gallons at 1.045, pre-boil, and 88% mash efficiency.

Now I see where you're going. Initially I thought you were saying the second runnings, only, of each batch would be the same gravity, but you are in fact combining them with the first runnings. The above makes complete sense.

[Brauer]

Now I see where you're going. Initially I thought you were saying the second runnings, only, of each batch would be the same gravity, but you are in fact combining them with the first runnings. The above makes complete sense.

The second runnings alone will be approximately the same gravity before they are combined with the first runnings.Also, the wort produced by combining the first and second runnings will have approximately the same gravity.