21 replies to this topic

[HokieTrismegistus]

Wanted to try to make a Pilsner type beer... shooting for Pilsner Urquell, would gladly settle for Stella or Heineken-like results.Make a huge starter of yeast, probably White Labs European Lager, double what I usually use for ales.Put together a grain bill of something like 9 pounds absolute best pilsner malt I can find, Belgian if avaialable, and then a pound of the lightest vienna malt they have.Mashing: Shoot for 150 or so for the main sachriffication rest... but is it crucial to do a protein rest for this style?Boil: One hour, add hallertauer at 60, tettnanger and saaz at 10.Cool down as fast as possible.Cold pitch lager yeast into wort, and then get it chilling as fast as possible. Wait wait wait wait wait.When it's fermented dry, pull it out and let it sit at room temp for a week so the yeasties can eat their diacytal up.Put it into secondary.Keg.Drink and post idiotically.

[Thirsty]

All looks good except the boil. I would runoff enough to allow for at least a 90 minute boil. You want to drive the DMS out for one, and that usually requires a 90 minute boil, if you only do 60 with a pilsner malt, you may get that can o corn flavor. This extended boil will also give you a chance to have a more rigorous boil in the beginning and establish a nice hot break. When you see this you can turn your burner off for 5 minutes and let the protein congeal on itself, then fire back up. This will allow for a cleaner finished beer and better 60 minute hop utilization. MY $.02As for the rest, if using a highly modified 2 row malt, single infusion is fine. If you went with 6 row, then a stepped mash would be more than likely helpful.

[Thirsty]

FWIW BYOs 150 clones issue has Pilsner Urquell's clone as:8# pilsner1# vienna.5# munich.5# carapils1.3 oz cluster 60.93 oz saaz 15.75 oz saaz 0Wyeast 2001 (Urquell Lager) or white labs WLP800 (pilsner)They are calling for a 15 minute rest at 132, then a decoction to 155 for 45 minutes. I still think a single infusion at 150 is fine unless you do decoctions regularly.

[DubbelEntendre]

I would probably due a short protein rest 10-30 mins depending on how well modified the malt is.I would do a 90 min boil as suggested.I would cool to primary temp before pitching the yeast.

[Lagerdemain]

Regardless of what BYO says, cluster has no business whatsoever being anywhere near a Czech pilsner recipe. There is only one hop, for that matter - Czech (definitely NOT U.S.) Saaz. As far as yeast, my opinion is that Wyeast #2278 gets you the closest, and there are a couple of other CZ pils strains that will work ok, but I would avoid using the standard Eurolager strains.

[Slainte]

Make sure you stick your carboy in the sun to get that classic imported taste.

[Salsgebom]

I would probably due a short protein rest 10-30 mins depending on how well modified the malt is.I would do a 90 min boil as suggested.I would cool to primary temp before pitching the yeast.

The malt is plenty modified. It doesn't need a protein rest. If you want to do an authentic Pilsner mash schedule you would do a beta and alpha amylase rest followed by a 78*C mash-out but this is unnecessary IMO. Cooling the wort to primary temp before pitching is crucial. +1!

Make sure you stick your carboy in the sun to get that classic imported taste.

+1. This is important for getting that Imported Lager flavor but be careful. Leaving the carboy out on a sunny day, you can get the desired flavor in less than 2 minutes.

[HokieTrismegistus]

The malt is plenty modified. It doesn't need a protein rest. If you want to do an authentic Pilsner mash schedule you would do a beta and alpha amylase rest followed by a 78*C mash-out but this is unnecessary IMO. Cooling the wort to primary temp before pitching is crucial. +1!+1. This is important for getting that Imported Lager flavor but be careful. Leaving the carboy out on a sunny day, you can get the desired flavor in less than 2 minutes.

Hmmm.... is it the same if I get really drunk and then play hide and go seek with a skunk?

[Big Nake]

I think your process looks great. I make beers like this all the time and will do it just as you show. Single infusion at 150° or so, a simple grain bill of pils (or just Am. 2-row) and Vienna (sometimes Munich or Carafoam), and only mild hops like Hallertau, Hersbrucker, Mittelfruh, Saaz, Spalt, Styrian Goldings, etc. I have used pilsner malt with a 60-minute boil and did not have DMS. There was a good conversation about how the post-boil chill (and how quickly you get down below 140°) has an impact on DMS. Not sure if I am understanding your pitch temp here, but you ABSOLUTELY want to make sure your wort is at or below your desired primary fermentation temp. Get the wort down to 45-50° (use an ice bath if you have no other choice) and THEN pitch. Oxygenate too. You can use Jamil's yeast calculator to determine how many milliliters of yeast to use (the link is on my site, under GENERAL BREWING INFO) and I have a LAGER page on my site too. Also, Wyeast 2278 and White Labs 800 are both very nice Czech strains and they're both high-floccers too which means your nice gold lager will be bright & clear too. I made some Czech Lagers with Wyeast 2001 Pilsner Urquell earlier this year and they came out very nicely. Good luck!

[3rd party JKor]

My comments in bold...

Wanted to try to make a Pilsner type beer... shooting for Pilsner Urquell, would gladly settle for Stella or Heineken-like results.Make a huge starter of yeast, probably White Labs European Lager, double what I usually use for ales. Yes, check a pitching rate calculator to get your desired pitch rate.Put together a grain bill of something like 9 pounds absolute best pilsner malt I can find, Belgian if available, and then a pound of the lightest vienna malt they have. Sounds good to me.Mashing: Shoot for 150 or so for the main sachriffication rest... but is it crucial to do a protein rest for this style? No protein rest necessary, usually.Boil: One hour, add hallertauer at 60, tettnanger and saaz at 10. Boil 90 minutes, I'd go all Saaz.Cool down as fast as possible. Very important to get below 140°F ASAP, halts DMS production.Cold pitch lager yeast into wort, and then get it chilling as fast as possible. If you can, bring the wort down below the pitch temp by a few degrees before pitching. Like ken said, oxygenate.Wait wait wait wait wait.When it's fermented dry, pull it out and let it sit at room temp for a week so the yeasties can eat their diacytal up. Diacetyl rest may or may not be necessary. As the primary ferment is coming to an end, take a gravity sample, smell and taste it. If you can't pick up any diacetyl, you don't need to do the rest.Put it into secondary.Keg.Drink and post idiotically. How will we know the difference from your normal posts?

Check this out for some more tips: https://thebrewingne...l-Show-04-23-07

Edited by JKoravos, 13 July 2009 - 07:32 AM.

[Deerslyr]

FWIW BYOs 150 clones issue has Pilsner Urquell's clone as:8# pilsner1# vienna.5# munich.5# carapils1.3 oz cluster 60.93 oz saaz 15.75 oz saaz 0Wyeast 2001 (Urquell Lager) or white labs WLP800 (pilsner)They are calling for a 15 minute rest at 132, then a decoction to 155 for 45 minutes. I still think a single infusion at 150 is fine unless you do decoctions regularly.

I think this is close to the same recipe that they had in the magazine just over a year ago. My buddy and I bought a pound of saaz off E-Bay and made 10 gallons... came out pretty good despite the manifold falling apart during the mash. We risked some HSA and had to take everything out of the tun to put the manifold back (it's been lightly cemented together since then). We did a single infusion, and it came out just fine. IIRC, we were a bit higher than 150, so probably came out a bit sweeter than it should have.

[davelew]

When it's fermented dry, pull it out and let it sit at room temp for a week so the yeasties can eat their diacytal up.

First, I'm not a fan of diacetyl rests. I think they're mostly a way for commercial breweries to get beer out of their fermenters more quickly. If you treat your yeast well and let it ferment a long time, you won;t have problems with diacetyl. On the other hand, if you do a diacetyl rest too early, you'll get fruity off flavors. For most homebrewers, I think it's more likely that a diacetyl rest will cause problems than solve them.Second, if you absolutely must do a diacetyl rest, the yeast need some sugars to consume in order to take care of the diacetyl. If you wait until the beer is fermented dry, the diacetyl rest won't actually take care of any diacetyl. The yeast need to be active and metabolizing order to eliminate diacetyl.

[tag]

How would a diacetyl rest cause problems?And PU has a bit of diacetyl in it anyways.

[Big Nake]

Yeah, I gotta question that D-rest talk. If you wait until the primary is 90-95% complete and just warm the primary to about 60° for 1-2 days, you have completed a successful d-rest with very little effort and possibly greatly improved your lager beer. I have had gold lagers with diacetyl and they are not good to drink, period. I honestly don't know which strains produce it, so I do a d-rest on every single one. I do know that Wyeast 2000 Budvar produces diacetyl because I forgot my d-rest on my latest beer with that yeast and I regretted it. To each their own, but I make a lot of lagers and it just seems like good insurance to me and I can't think of a downside unless you started the d-rest and raised the temp when the primary was only half done, etc. Good luck.

[davelew]

How would a diacetyl rest cause problems?

You can get fruity ale-like esters from doing the diacetyl rest before fermentation is mostly complete.When I pitch big, aerate well, and ferment cool, I've never gotten a hint of diacetyl in my lagers. I've had problems with ale-like off-flavors from fermenting too warm or too cold, but never diacetyl. Your mileage may vary, but if you do a good long primary and follow good brewineg practices, I don't think diacetyl rests are necessary.

[davelew]

I do know that Wyeast 2000 Budvar produces diacetyl

It's not just the yeast that produces diacetyl, it's also the composition of the wort. When yeast are missing a certain nutrient, the amino acid valine, they produce 2-acetolactate within the yeast cells as part of the pathway to create valine. The 2-acetolactate then leaks out of the cells, and, in the spaces between the yeast cells, it naturally degrades into 2,3-butanedione over time. The product of this degradation, 2,3-butanedione, is better known by its common name, "diacetyl". When the yeast see the diacetyl in their beery home, they feel threatened by the diacetyl, and start an enzymatic path to transform the diacetyl into an almost tasteless higher alcohol, 2,3-butanediol.The reason for the diacetyl rest is to make sure all of the acetolactate has turned into diacetyl while the yeast is still active enough to do something about it. If you have a valine-deficient wort, you could have acetolactate precursors, and be unable to taste them. During cold storage, it's possible that diacetyl will be slowly created and the yeast wil be unable to get rid of it.In the end, pro brewers tend to do diacetyl rests because it's cheaper than testing for Valine in wort, and good insurance for a large batch. If you don't use a ton of adjuncts, and don't underpitch (forcing the yeast to multiply so many times that they have a high probability of creating metabolic mutants unable to absorb valine), your yeast will have plenty of valine and you won't need to do a diacetyl rest because the yeast will never create diacetyl precursors.

[Big Nake]

It's not just the yeast that produces diacetyl, it's also the composition of the wort. When yeast are missing a certain nutrient, the amino acid valine, they produce 2-acetolactate within the yeast cells as part of the pathway to create valine. The 2-acetolactate then leaks out of the cells, and, in the spaces between the yeast cells, it naturally degrades into 2,3-butanedione over time. The product of this degradation, 2,3-butanedione, is better known by its common name, "diacetyl". When the yeast see the diacetyl in their beery home, they feel threatened by the diacetyl, and start an enzymatic path to transform the diacetyl into an almost tasteless higher alcohol, 2,3-butanediol.The reason for the diacetyl rest is to make sure all of the acetolactate has turned into diacetyl while the yeast is still active enough to do something about it. If you have a valine-deficient wort, you could have acetolactate precursors, and be unable to taste them. During cold storage, it's possible that diacetyl will be slowly created and the yeast wil be unable to get rid of it.In the end, pro brewers tend to do diacetyl rests because it's cheaper than testing for Valine in wort, and good insurance for a large batch. If you don't use a ton of adjuncts, and don't underpitch (forcing the yeast to multiply so many times that they have a high probability of creating metabolic mutants unable to absorb valine), your yeast will have plenty of valine and you won't need to do a diacetyl rest because the yeast will never create diacetyl precursors.

I like beer.

[Slainte]

Mashing this thing at 150 F is not going to be what you want to do. Bohemian Pilsners are supposed to be a bit more full bodied than the other pilsners. I would shoot around 154-155 F.You want to achieve a final gravity in the 1.013-1.017 range.Oh, and make sure you only use Czech Saaz hops. Any other varieties have no business in this beer.Very soft water.Since you're shooting for Pilsner Urquell, you want to use Wyeast 2001 Urquell Lager. I just tried it out. Makes a nice authentic tasting BoPils.

[HokieTrismegistus]

I like beer.

lol

[tag]

It's not just the yeast that produces diacetyl, it's also the composition of the wort. When yeast are missing a certain nutrient, the amino acid valine, they produce 2-acetolactate within the yeast cells as part of the pathway to create valine. The 2-acetolactate then leaks out of the cells, and, in the spaces between the yeast cells, it naturally degrades into 2,3-butanedione over time. The product of this degradation, 2,3-butanedione, is better known by its common name, "diacetyl". When the yeast see the diacetyl in their beery home, they feel threatened by the diacetyl, and start an enzymatic path to transform the diacetyl into an almost tasteless higher alcohol, 2,3-butanediol.The reason for the diacetyl rest is to make sure all of the acetolactate has turned into diacetyl while the yeast is still active enough to do something about it. If you have a valine-deficient wort, you could have acetolactate precursors, and be unable to taste them. During cold storage, it's possible that diacetyl will be slowly created and the yeast wil be unable to get rid of it.In the end, pro brewers tend to do diacetyl rests because it's cheaper than testing for Valine in wort, and good insurance for a large batch. If you don't use a ton of adjuncts, and don't underpitch (forcing the yeast to multiply so many times that they have a high probability of creating metabolic mutants unable to absorb valine), your yeast will have plenty of valine and you won't need to do a diacetyl rest because the yeast will never create diacetyl precursors.

Is there any way to add Valine?