102 replies to this topic

[djinkc]

I'm 100% convinced that crush matters because it's the key to getting good hydration. Based on my own experience, of course.Yes, you can. I've checked my last 12 brews and I got 100% every time. A small difference, to be sure, but a difference.

pfft..... I got 110%

[Deerslyr]

Rich, I challenge you to do a minimal crush and see what you get. I'm sure that at a certain point, the crush will plateau in that you aren't going to get any better. But you have to get the grain crushed to that point. I had a bad crush one time (prior to getting my own mill) and my efficiency sucked. Set your gap fairly wide and do your mash... see what happens. I'm pretty certain you won't be getting 85% to 90% on that.

[Mya]

how do you get 100% extraction Denny?

Edited by miccullen, 22 May 2012 - 10:30 AM.

[SchwanzBrewer]

Rich, I challenge you to do a minimal crush and see what you get. I'm sure that at a certain point, the crush will plateau in that you aren't going to get any better. But you have to get the grain crushed to that point. I had a bad crush one time (prior to getting my own mill) and my efficiency sucked. Set your gap fairly wide and do your mash... see what happens. I'm pretty certain you won't be getting 85% to 90% on that.

When I get my own grain mill that I won't get yelled at for adjusting I'll try. :PThe last 10 batches I have done on the same mill at the LHBS. I asked and they said they haven't adjusted it in a while. To me it looks like a "normal" crush. BuzzBuzzard can confirm or deny this since we use the same LHBS for grains. Denny, I want to make sure we are comparing apples to apples. When I say conversion efficiency I base that on the estimated max that the maltser lists (which is in itself usually 80% - 85%), preboil volume and gravity. So after doing the math, lets say my theoretical max gravity was 1.050 preboil, and I measured 1.046 I would be at 92% conversion/lautering efficiency (I add in lautering because it matters how well you do the sparge in how much converted sugar you collect, also 92% is the highest I have ever achieved on a brew day so far). I don't think you can actually hit 100% IIRC.Whether it is easier to hydrate the grist by using a finer crush is separate variable. All things being equal, I say a mash with a finer crush and a medium crush hydrated to the same level with the same PH will get the same conversion/lautering efficiency assuming you use the same lautering process on each.Cheers,Rich

[Deerslyr]

When I get my own grain mill that I won't get yelled at for adjusting I'll try. :PThe last 10 batches I have done on the same mill at the LHBS. I asked and they said they haven't adjusted it in a while. To me it looks like a "normal" crush. BuzzBuzzard can confirm or deny this since we use the same LHBS for grains.Denny, I want to make sure we are comparing apples to apples. When I say conversion efficiency I base that on the estimated max that the maltser lists (which is in itself usually 80% - 85%), preboil volume and gravity. So after doing the math, lets say my theoretical max gravity was 1.050 preboil, and I measured 1.046 I would be at 92% conversion/lautering efficiency (I add in lautering because it matters how well you do the sparge in how much converted sugar you collect, also 92% is the highest I have ever achieved on a brew day so far). I don't think you can actually hit 100% IIRC.Whether it is easier to hydrate the grist by using a finer crush is separate variable. All things being equal, I say a mash with a finer crush and a medium crush hydrated to the same level with the same PH will get the same conversion/lautering efficiency assuming you use the same lautering process on each.Cheers,Rich

This is the plateau that I was theorizing on. But if you have a poor crush, you haven't met the plateau yet. Also... if the crush didn't matter, we would never have these conversations on regarding "crush" and "efficiency" together.

[denny]

pfft..... I got 110%

You must be using a blue cooler!

[denny]

how do you get 100% extraction Denny?

Sorry to be unclear...100% conversion efficiency. Extraction tales it down to around 85%.

[denny]

Denny, I want to make sure we are comparing apples to apples. When I say conversion efficiency I base that on the estimated max that the maltser lists (which is in itself usually 80% - 85%), preboil volume and gravity. So after doing the math, lets say my theoretical max gravity was 1.050 preboil, and I measured 1.046 I would be at 92% conversion/lautering efficiency (I add in lautering because it matters how well you do the sparge in how much converted sugar you collect, also 92% is the highest I have ever achieved on a brew day so far). I don't think you can actually hit 100% IIRC.Whether it is easier to hydrate the grist by using a finer crush is separate variable. All things being equal, I say a mash with a finer crush and a medium crush hydrated to the same level with the same PH will get the same conversion/lautering efficiency assuming you use the same lautering process on each.Cheers,Rich

Rich, I've just been using Kai's chart. I'll try to remember to calculate it like you did on my next brew. Hopefully I can find a lot analysis for my malt.It's hard to disagree with "hydrated to the same level with the same PH". But the key there is "to the same level". My contention and experience is that it's easier to hydrate a finer crush, not that it can't be done to the same level.

[SchwanzBrewer]

Sorry to be unclear...100% conversion efficiency. Extraction tales it down to around 85%.

How do you measure your conversion efficiency?

[SchwanzBrewer]

Rich, I've just been using Kai's chart. I'll try to remember to calculate it like you did on my next brew. Hopefully I can find a lot analysis for my malt.It's hard to disagree with "hydrated to the same level with the same PH". But the key there is "to the same level". My contention and experience is that it's easier to hydrate a finer crush, not that it can't be done to the same level.

Got a link for the chart?So then so long as you are prudent about hydrating the grist then the crush shouldn't matter. I enjoy stirring my mash, one of my favorite parts of brew day. Dough balls are my arch nemesis.

[BlKtRe]

Crush it till your scared.

[matt6150]

...100% conversion efficiency.

How do you measure this?And did anyone see any flaws in my technique? Suggestions?

[Mya]

Sorry to be unclear...100% conversion efficiency. Extraction tales it down to around 85%.

whew!had me thinking too much

[SchwanzBrewer]

Here's a good question, is there anything in someones water chemistry that might cause a stall in conversion like maybe high chlorine levels or organics?matt, what is your standard technique?

[denny]

Got a link for the chart?So then so long as you are prudent about hydrating the grist then the crush shouldn't matter. I enjoy stirring my mash, one of my favorite parts of brew day. Dough balls are my arch nemesis.

Here ya go....https://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Troubleshooting_Brewhouse_Efficiency#Determining_Conversion_Efficiency

[matt6150]

matt, what is your standard technique?

See my older post.

[SchwanzBrewer]

I get my grain crushed by brewmasters warehouse were I order it from, I have always had good luck with there crush in the past. But until I can swing my own mill that's the route I go. My tun is a rectangular cooler with a cooper manifold that drains out the original spigot location in the front middle. I will describe how this last brew went. I heated up 5 gals of strike water to 169 and mashed in. Stirred very well and did not see any clumps. Like I said earlier I got distracted and didn't check the temp for 20-25 min. It was at 160, I stirred some more added a quart of cold water and it came gown to 152 for the rest of the mash. I collected the first runnings and then sparged with 4.5 gals of 195 degree water. Stirred real well and then collected that. PM said I would loose about 2 gals in grain absorption and then I lost around 2 gals during the boil. And I had right about at 5.5 gals in the fermenter. Oh and I used a tablespoon of that PH 5.2 stabilizer stuff. I have heard some good and bad things about that stuff. I had stopped using it for awhile and then at the last minute decided to give it a whirl again. I thought it would help my efficiency as I seem to think it has in the past.That was the first time I used that thermometer, it was a floating one that I just picked up because I broke my last one during the last brew session. But I will check it.

When you added the cold water, was it treated? Could have thrown off your PH. Was this step before or after you added the stabilizer?Mash was definitely high. I think your sparge is high too, you are in the tannin extraction range IIRC. 2 gal boil off or 2 gallons total with kettle losses due to hot break, hops, and such. Boiling off 2 gallons seems pretty high. When you add the sparge water do you stir it in really well, or are you fly sparging?

[Mya]

you got a 160 degree mash from 169 degree water, that seem high, what temp was your grain at and what was your QT/lbs ratio?

[denny]

you got a 160 degree mash from 169 degree water, that seem high, what temp was your grain at and what was your QT/lbs ratio?

Good catch! That seems almost impossible.

[Deerslyr]

you got a 160 degree mash from 169 degree water, that seem high, what temp was your grain at and what was your QT/lbs ratio?

Good catch! That seems almost impossible.

Maybe the thermometer needs to be calibrated. I never feel safe unless I have a backup thermometer.