47 replies to this topic

[djinkc]

I don't have any of those hops but the recipe sounds nice. probably the limit on how much crystal I'd want.

In retrospect it worked out nice. I probably wouldn't do it again.

[denny]

Question...the OP wants to make a "tradional authentic" Vienna lager. But the only Vienna lagers I know of are the Mexican versions. So how do you know these aren't traditional and authentic and how would any of us know what is?

[positiveContact]

Question...the OP wants to make a "tradional authentic" Vienna lager. But the only Vienna lagers I know of are the Mexican versions. So how do you know these aren't traditional and authentic and how would any of us know what is?

I read something that said that originally they didn't use adjuncts so were a little maltier and more complex.

edit: guess it was the BJCP...

History: The original amber lager developed by Anton Dreher shortly after the isolation of lager yeast. Nearly extinct in its area of origin, the style continues in Mexico where it was brought by Santiago Graf and other Austrian immigrant brewers in the late 1800s. Regrettably, most modern examples use adjuncts which lessen the rich malt complexity characteristic of the best examples of this style. The style owes much of its character to the method of malting (Vienna malt). Lighter malt character overall than Oktoberfest, yet still decidedly balanced toward malt.

[MtnBrewer]

Thanks for the info. I'm surprised how much pils and munich there is in there. Do those interfere with the vienna at all?

Not at all. I see those malts as 3 points on a continuum and they are perfectly balanced in this recipe. Note that the carafa didn't add any harshness at all, maybe only a hint of roastiness. Also I used Tett in my version because that's what I had.

[positiveContact]

Not at all. I see those malts as 3 points on a continuum and they are perfectly balanced in this recipe. Note that the carafa didn't add any harshness at all, maybe only a hint of roastiness. Also I used Tett in my version because that's what I had.

fair enough! I'll probably give it a whirl per the recipe except using staro-prague yeast.

[Brauer]

Question...the OP wants to make a "tradional authentic" Vienna lager. But the only Vienna lagers I know of are the Mexican versions. So how do you know these aren't traditional and authentic and how would any of us know what is?

I've also read that, while Vienna Lagers died out in Vienna, they survived in the Czech Republic, which is right next to Vienna. Czech Polotmavé (amber lagers) might be closest to a modern Vienna Lager

[positiveContact]

I've also read that, while Vienna Lagers died out in Vienna, they survived in the Czech Republic, which is right next to Vienna. Czech Polotmavé (amber lagers) might be closest to a modern Vienna Lager

guess it's appropriate that I'm using czech yeast then

[Brauer]

guess it's appropriate that I'm using czech yeast then

Makes sense to me! Vienna is closer to Prague, Pilsen and Budweis than it is to Munich.

[Big Nake]

I ordered Pils, Vienna and the 838 today (along with about $100 of other stuff). I looked for "Carafa Special" but what I found instead was dehusked Carafa 1. I ordered some after reading the description and seeing that it does not have the harsh, bitter, roasty flavors because the husks have been removed. Not sure on that but I ordered it anyway. I have some other beers lined up including a lager I'm making tomorrow but once the scheduled beers have been made, I'll try this one. Is 838 an equivalent to 2308? I ask this because all of these yeasts have their character and the ones that may be used for pilsner production (2124, 2001, 2278, 800, 802, 830, etc) have that "pilsnery" profile to them where others like 2308, 2206, 833, 838 and others seem to have a "heavier, maltier" thing happening. I'm not really sure which type of lager yeast is meant to be used in a Vienna but I do know that a number of brewers have made great Vienna Lagers with White Labs 940. Does this mean that they meant to make a "Mexican Vienna" or just a good Vienna with a nice lager yeast? Cheers.

[Brauer]

I looked for "Carafa Special" but what I found instead was dehusked Carafa 1.

Same thing.

Is 838 an equivalent to 2308?

Equivalent, according to Kris Englund's chart.

[positiveContact]

Same thing. Equivalent, according to Kris Englund's chart.

do you have a link to his chart? I've seen some yeast equivelency charts that are pretty questionable. no idea who this guy is though...

[Big Nake]

I've seen these charts and have noticed some similarities: Much of the information seems reasonable, a small amount of it seems inaccurate and other parts I don't know because I'm not familiar with the strains. I like the idea in case you're looking for something and your local place only carries one brand or another but if the chart isn't accurate, it's not helping. I've heard that 830 and 2124 were the same but I don't see that. Plus, one is called "German Lager" and the other "Bohemian Lager". I guess I thought the word "Bohemian" was interchangeable with "Czech" which would suggest that these two yeasts were not the same. Is "Bohemian" a general term meaning "from Central Europe" or something?

Ah, Dictionary.com says: a person, as an artist or writer, who lives and acts free of regard for conventional rules and practices. It also says "A gypsy". Sweet! Gypsy yeast!

[MtnBrewer]

Bohemian means from Bohemia, which is now part of the Czech Republic.

[Brauer]

do you have a link to his chart? I've seen some yeast equivelency charts that are pretty questionable. no idea who this guy is though...

Here's the yeast comparison chart. Kris Englund is the continuing education director at the BJCP, but mostly he's a guy that's compiled a list of yeast equivalents and brewery sources.

Plus, one is called "German Lager" and the other "Bohemian Lager". I guess I thought the word "Bohemian" was interchangeable with "Czech" which would suggest that these two yeasts were not the same.

This is an area that has frequently been in dispute between these two countries and is partly in the modern Czech Republic and partly in Bavaria.

[positiveContact]

thanks for the link

[positiveContact]

wow - I really had to back off the grain ammounts in jamil's recipe to even approach 1.050 and I'm only assuming 70% total system efficiency!

[Brauer]

I think his recipes are also for 6 gallons post-boil.

[positiveContact]

You batch sparge right and overnight mash right? If this is right I would say mash in at 148 at a 1.25/1 water to grain ratio for 45 minutes, add the amount of water needed for your first runoof to bring the temp to 160-162 and let sit overnight.

I'm thinking of doing my first official step mash. what is the thought process behind the times and temperatures here?

[dmtaylor]

The following recipe got a 2nd place ribbon/medal in the 2010 BUZZ Boneyard Brew-Off. And Denny liked it.Fiery Future Vienna5 gallonsOG=1.051ABV=5.2%IBU=19SRM=14Eff=94%5.6 lb German Vienna1.2 lb German Munich6 oz Belgian CaraMunich2 oz Chocolate malt1.5 oz Belgian Biscuit0.5 oz Mt. Hood (5% alpha, 60 minutes)0.5 oz Hallertauer (4.4% alpha, 60 minutes)0.375 oz Saaz (2.5% alpha, 10 minutes)Wyeast 2206 Bavarian LagerThe hops were not important in this beer. I used some leftovers that I had on hand. Any continental-style hops would be fine in this beer. It's not about the hops.I triple decocted this beer, which no doubt improved the efficiency more than normal up to 94%. Doughed in at 113 F (I overshot a little), pulled 1/3 of thick mash, brought to 158 F for 10 minutes, then boiled 15 minutes and added back in. Protein rested here at 120 F while I boiled another 1/3 thick mash for 10 minutes, added back in. Missed the mark on temperature by a huge amount so I had to use boiling water and additional heat on a burner to bring it up to 154 F for 10 minutes. In hindsight I probably should have boiled 2/3 thick mash. Then I pulled 1/3 thin mash and boiled 10 minutes, added back in. This only maintained temperature in mid 150s instead of a mashout. So I immediately ran off and started to bring up to a boil.Following are my recommended single infusion instructions, if you'd prefer to try that, along with the other general stuff.Make a 4-quart yeast starter 2-3 days in advance. Mash 150 F for 40 minutes, also use Campden to knock out chlorine. Ferment as close to 50 F as possible for 6 to 8 days, then raise up to 65 F for 2 days for diacetyl rest, then check gravity. When gravity is in low teens, crash to ice cold for 2 months. Bottle with 9 Tbsp table sugar and a little revived yeast.

[Big Nake]

Update: First off, I got a BIG box of stuff yesterday... pilsner, munich, vienna, caramunich, English Crystal, carafoam, carapils, debittered black, aromatic, melanoidin and also some stuff I've never used: dehusked carafa #1 and pale chocolate. Whoo-hoo! Also in the box was an Activator of 1028 (for a coconut porter I have coming up) and also White Labs 838. I compared the specs and I can't see how this is 2308 unless it's just considered "close". 838: Attenuation 68-76%, Flocculation: Med to High and temp range of 50-55°. 2308: Attenuation 73-77%, Flocculation: Med and temp range of 48-56°. The other thing is that 838 is described as producing "low-to-no" diacetyl and Wyeast warns that 2308 requires a complete diacetyl rest. Kinda sounds like two completely different animals.