74 replies to this topic

[cj in j]

Just woke up and was directed to this thread by SchwanzBrewer. Everything we package, bottle or keg, gets primed or krausened. Why? Besides the obvious, natural carbonation, we find that our beers taste better with that secondary fermentation in the bottle or keg. It's kind of hard to explain, but the flavors kind of meld together better, giving the beer more character or smoothness or . . . like I said, it's kind of hard to put in words, but quite noticeable. Yes, force carbonating would be easier to do and easier to control, but we're not out for ease, we try to make the best beers we can. End of lecture. Our process looks like this:-- Near the end of fermentation (when that is is different for each beer, but that's also part of the fun), the fermenter is partially capped and we let the pressure build up to ~4-5 psi.-- After we harvest the yeast, we transfer to a conditioning tank using CO2 to push the beer. The conditioning tank is held at ~7-8 psi for anywhere from 1 day (non-dry hopped beers when we're in a hurry) to 7 days (dry hopped, sometimes 14 days if we double dry hop). Tank temp ranges from 34F (non-dry hopped beers and lagers) to 59-68F (dry hopped).-- For kegs, we generally prime with 2.5g/l; bottles get 2.8 g/l. We just use regular rock sugar (which is basically just white table sugar) for most of our priming, dissolved in 10 ml of boiling water/liter of beer. The priming level will change depending on several factors, including the style of beer, characteristic of the yeast, attenuation. This is where experience comes into play. For example (and this assumes there are no unusual circumstances, like the brewer mashed too high), wheat beers get more sugar, Belgian beers sometimes get more, sometimes get less, lagers get less, beers that didn't reach our target attenuation get less, those that attenuated more get a bit more, etc. -- When we krausen, we harvest beer from a newly fermenting batch, between 24-40 hours after pitching the yeast. We aim for attenuation to be between 15-35% when we harvest. We take 2.5% of the volume of the beer we're kegging/bottling, and prime with that. Again, this is where the art comes in. If we're harvesting the krausen from a lower gravity beer (say 1.050 and under), we aim for the 24 hour mark; a beer that has a higher starting gravity, we wait longer. -- Kegs and bottles are kept at 68F for 7-10 days (longer for krausened beers, big beers or Belgian styles), then they go into the cold fridge (~48F for most beers, ~40F for lagers) for at least a week before we'll sell them. The result is our kegged beers generally have ~13-14 psi when served at ~50F, which means they're on the lower end of the scale -- probably around 2.3-2.4 volumes, with some beers being lower, some higher. It really is an art -- like others have said, give it a try starting on the low end. 1/3 cup is probably a good starting point for kegs, but please don't rely on measuring by the cup -- get a scale and weigh out your sugar, that's the only way to get consistency. If carbonation isn't high enough, just hook up the CO2 at 15 psi (or whatever), and within a few days your beer will be carbonated perfectly. Then next time, add a bit more. But keep good notes on attenuation, temperature, CO2 level before priming, sugar source and weight, yeast strain, etc. Once you get 5 or 6 under your belt, you'll get better and better at dialing it in. Have fun!

[Big Nake]

Good stuff, CJ. Cheers to you.

[cj in j]

You're just lucky you caught me on my day off without a hangover.

[SchwanzBrewer]

CJ that is great! Just to be clear, you are not carbonating in the conditioning tank, just conditioning (but it is under a bit of pressure - so it does carbonate lightly), then you are carbonating with the priming solution? Cheers,Rich Edit, I just saw your PM.

Edited by SchwanzBrewer, 03 November 2011 - 05:40 PM.

[cj in j]

Just to be clear, you are not carbonating in the conditioning tank, just conditioning (but it is under a bit of pressure - so it does carbonate lightly), then you are carbonating with the priming solution?

Exactly -- the beer in the conditioning tank is under pressure, so some CO2 does dissolve into it, but at least half (probably more) of the carbonation comes from priming.

[positiveContact]

Just woke up and was directed to this thread by SchwanzBrewer. Everything we package, bottle or keg, gets primed or krausened. Why? Besides the obvious, natural carbonation, we find that our beers taste better with that secondary fermentation in the bottle or keg. It's kind of hard to explain, but the flavors kind of meld together better, giving the beer more character or smoothness or . . . like I said, it's kind of hard to put in words, but quite noticeable. Yes, force carbonating would be easier to do and easier to control, but we're not out for ease, we try to make the best beers we can. End of lecture.

have you ever done or heard of someone doing a blind taste test to prove this out?

[cj in j]

Nope, but we’re pretty harsh in judging our own beers. Back when I was a homebrewer, I did both forced carbonation and keg priming -- as well as priming a keg and then bottling from there once it was carbonated. I liked, very subjectively, the primed kegs were better. But I never did any real side-by-sides or blind tastings. I’m sure some homebrewers out there have, though.

[No Party JKor]

What is the benefit to naturally carbonating in a keg? Genuine question since in my understanding, force carbonating removes a lot of the downfalls of natural carbonation like yeast sediment and predictability in carbonation level. I can't really think of a benefit...

primed beers will be a touch drier, which (IMO) is what people tend to 'like better' about naturally carbed beers. Also, getting the yeast active again can scrub out any O2 that may have been picked up in transfers.

[HVB]

I am going to try this on my next batch. My kegs typicaly sit aroudn for a while before I am ready to drink them so I see no reason why this would not work OK for me.

[positiveContact]

I am going to try this on my next batch. My kegs typicaly sit aroudn for a while before I am ready to drink them so I see no reason why this would not work OK for me.

do you make 10 gal batches? could you split one in half for a comparison?

[HVB]

do you make 10 gal batches? could you split one in half for a comparison?

yes, I do 10g batches and I could split them and send them off for a taste test.

[Kellermeister]

How long after fermentation can you add sugar and still have active yeast to eat it? Is there ever a problem with adding sugar and then no fermentation takes place?

[No Party JKor]

How long after fermentation can you add sugar and still have active yeast to eat it? Is there ever a problem with adding sugar and then no fermentation takes place?

it;s fine to add some dry yeast with the sugar as well, if you don;t think the yeast from fermentation won't be able to handle it.

[SchwanzBrewer]

What a mess. I made my priming solution for 2.5 gallons of beer. This was the first time ever trying to fill a sanke style keg. What a pain in the butt. I have one D-coupler for filling and 1 for adding CO2. There isn't much head room in that keg and I ended up dumping about 1/2 gallon of beer because I had nowhere to put it. Sure hope this is good. This is my first try with 3868 and there are some major esters going on here. Lots of banana. Two weeks to see how the experiment went! I will probably try this with a regular corny on my next two beers as well. Cheers,Rich

[Chuck d Rochefort]

Some other breweries package the beer a few points above terminal gravity so it finishes under pressure. Cheers,Rich

I naturally carbonate my Dirty Sanchez' Mexi Lager..... 2ndary occurs in a 10g cornie...... When its time to xfer(to 2 x 5g conries) for 2nd D- rest/ lagering... Its carbonated..... After lagering for 30-45 days its the clearest beer I've ever made. I think it benefits from the natural carbonation.... Hell, I'd do the puter screen challenge with KenLenard..... and THAT is a bold statement....

[Big Nake]

Hell, I'd do the puter screen challenge with KenLenard..... and THAT is a bold statement....

Oh, cut it out. Hey, so how many of you have racked 5 gallons of flat beer into a keg and added priming solution to naturally carb the keg? I know I posted earlier that I had heard 1/3rd cup for a 5-gallon keg but I have never tried this. I happen to have one-too-many kegs (I have 8 but can only keep 7 cold) so I thought it would be a good experiment to take that last keg (which is now empty), rack a beer to it and naturally carb it at basement temps. Is 1/3rd cup a good amount? Also, do certain styles benefit from this more than others? In secondary, I currently have an American Wheat, a Raspberry Ale, a Red Lager, A Czech Pils, an ESB, a Festbier of sorts and I have another Festbier of sorts and another ESB in primary. I'd like to try this and see how it comes out. When I was a bottler, I spoke with a number of other brewers and the overwhelming consensus was that they preferred force-carbed beers better than sugar-primed beers. Also, are you guys using plain-old corn sugar (priming sugar from the LHBS) or DME to do the priming? Cheers!

[SchwanzBrewer]

Oh, cut it out. Hey, so how many of you have racked 5 gallons of flat beer into a keg and added priming solution to naturally carb the keg? I know I posted earlier that I had heard 1/3rd cup for a 5-gallon keg but I have never tried this. I happen to have one-too-many kegs (I have 8 but can only keep 7 cold) so I thought it would be a good experiment to take that last keg (which is now empty), rack a beer to it and naturally carb it at basement temps. Is 1/3rd cup a good amount? Also, do certain styles benefit from this more than others? In secondary, I currently have an American Wheat, a Raspberry Ale, a Red Lager, A Czech Pils, an ESB, a Festbier of sorts and I have another Festbier of sorts and another ESB in primary. I'd like to try this and see how it comes out. When I was a bottler, I spoke with a number of other brewers and the overwhelming consensus was that they preferred force-carbed beers better than sugar-primed beers. Also, are you guys using plain-old corn sugar (priming sugar from the LHBS) or DME to do the priming? Cheers!

The hefeweizen I primed yesterday used dextrose (I think?) from the LHBS. I used CJ's method to calculate the weight needed (I had 2.5 gallons not 5). I'm gonna try it with the G-MLPA next weekend too. Cheers,Rich

[Brauer]

When I was a bottler, I spoke with a number of other brewers and the overwhelming consensus was that they preferred force-carbed beers better than sugar-primed beers. Also, are you guys using plain-old corn sugar (priming sugar from the LHBS) or DME to do the priming? Cheers!

I drank a lot of cask conditioned Lagers in Germany when I was there last. You need to know the days and the times they tap them at a lot of the Munich beer halls, but they are common (look for the signs that read "vom Faß"). A couple weeks ago I had a cask conditioned Märzen at a local pub. If you don't insist on high carbonation, they can be quite enjoyable. I love cask ale, but I've always assumed that the magic is really in the low level of carbonation, not the carbonation method. German casks are usually carbonated much higher than British casks, but most of the carbonation gets knocked out by the way they serve it. Anyway, all that was to say that the Festbier could be interesting, even if it is more commonly associated with a Bitter. I don't think it should matter if you carbonate with DME, corn sugar or table sugar. I use table sugar and it works just fine. Primarily, Germans use wort just because the Reinheitsgebot is interpreted to exclude the addition of refined sugar.

[SchwanzBrewer]

I drank a lot of cask conditioned Lagers in Germany when I was there last. You need to know the days and the times they tap them at a lot of the Munich beer halls, but they are common (look for the signs that read "vom Faß"). A couple weeks ago I had a cask conditioned Märzen at a local pub. If you don't insist on high carbonation, they can be quite enjoyable. I love cask ale, but I've always assumed that the magic is really in the low level of carbonation, not the carbonation method. German casks are usually carbonated much higher than British casks, but most of the carbonation gets knocked out by the way they serve it. Anyway, all that was to say that the Festbier could be interesting, even if it is more commonly associated with a Bitter. I don't think it should matter if you carbonate with DME, corn sugar or table sugar. I use table sugar and it works just fine. Primarily, Germans use wort just because the Reinheitsgebot is interpreted to exclude the addition of refined sugar.

DME doesn't ferment out as clean. The yeast utilize 100% of the simple sugars (or so I've been told/read)

[Big Nake]

Brauer: On the subject of "less carbonation", I recently made a small change to my process. I had used 25 to 30psi for 48 hours for a long time and noticed that some (quite a few, actually) of my batches were pretty lively. The past 4-6 batches went for only 36 hours between 25 and 30psi. I know that the style and also the temp of the beer comes into play when force-carbing and my beer is always placed in the fridge (in a keg, flat) overnight so it's very cold when I begin force-carbing it. The last couple of batches seem a little more enjoyable because of the lower carb level. Interesting angle on serving beer. But I will still try the natural carb in a keg trick and see how it goes. So... 1/3rd cup for five gallons???