20 replies to this topic

[3rd party JKor]

If you're doing multiple step-ups, what does your step up schedule look like? Do you wait until the first/second/etc. starter ferments out, chill, decant, etc?

[MtnBrewer]

I bought bigger flasks so that I don't have to anymore. But the way I used to do it is make as big a starter as I can, let it ferment out, chill, decant and then repeat. It takes 4-5 days to do it that way so that's why I do my starters in one step now.

[3rd party JKor]

How quickly do stirplate starters ferment out? I usually just let it go for a few days, it's hard to tell when it's really done though.

[MtnBrewer]

How quickly do stirplate starters ferment out? I usually just let it go for a few days, it's hard to tell when it's really done though.

Depends on how big. My 2 liter starters take about a day, the large ones take 2-3 days. It's easy to tell when it's done: it stops bubbling.

[DubbelEntendre]

0.5 L - 24 hrs on the stir plate 24 hrs in the fridge1-1.5 L - 24 hrs on the stir plate 24 hrs in the fridge2-4 L - 36-56 hrs on the stir plate 24 hrs in the fridgewarm up during the boil, decant, pitch slurry.Obviously, I stop at whatever point I need to stop at along the way (i.e. a 1.050 is only getting 0.5 L, while a 1.100 is getting 4L)edit: I don't use an airlock on my starters, I use the foam stoppers that allow air in the mix as the solution is stirring to get more oxygen into the mix.

Edited by DubbelEntendre, 16 June 2009 - 09:58 AM.

[3rd party JKor]

Depends on how big. My 2 liter starters take about a day, the large ones take 2-3 days. It's easy to tell when it's done: it stops bubbling.

When what stops bubbling? I just cover my flask with a piece of aluminum foil. The starter itself is pretty much always 'bubbly' because it's continuously entraining air while stirring.

[MtnBrewer]

I just cover my flask with a piece of aluminum foil.

Same.

[ncbeerbrewer]

MtnBrewer Posted Today, 12:14 PM

But the way I used to do it is make as big a starter as I can, let it ferment out, chill, decant and then repeat. It takes 4-5 days to do it that way so that's why I do my starters in one step now.

All of you stir plate folks keep talking this one out. I will keep a watch. I am trying to finish up my stir plate here so seeing this helps. For me otherwise though I basically have done all my starters at Mtn does his too.

[MtnBrewer]

All of you stir plate folks keep talking this one out. I will keep a watch. I am trying to finish up my stir plate here so seeing this helps. For me otherwise though I basically have done all my starters at Mtn does his too.

It isn't really about using or not using a stir plate. I'd do the same thing even if I didn't have one, it would just take longer and probably wouldn't make as much yeast. The issue is the size of the container. I figured out early on that a starter smaller than about 1.5 liters is a waste of time and DME. So I started using half gallon growlers or gallon jugs to make my starters in. They won't work with the stir plate, so when I got one I had to upgrade to 2 and 5 liter flasks.

[DubbelEntendre]

Figure 1. Effect of aeration on yeast cell number. 500 ml of BrewTek Superwort was pitched with a saturated 10 ml superstarter culture of BrewTek yeast and incubated at room temperature (75 °F) for two days. Cultures were either shaken 3-6 times a day, aerated with BrewTek aeration system for several minutes (foam permitting) 3-6 times a day, or continuously stirred on a magnetic stir plate. Yeast cell concentration was determined on the BrewTek hemacytometer. Traditional starter (with airlock) were taken from numbers published by Ray Daniels in HBD #1746 using Wyeast packet as inoculum.

source: https://www.maltosef...t_Culturing.phpThis is what I go off of, and according to Jamil's pitching rate calculator for a 1.060 gravity wort you need 229 billion cells.So, with .5L I am probably pushing it on the low side, because I probably don't get as much propagation as the experimental did, but its a heck of a lot better than I was doing.

[ncbeerbrewer]

It isn't really about using or not using a stir plate. I'd do the same thing even if I didn't have one, it would just take longer and probably wouldn't make as much yeast. The issue is the size of the container. I figured out early on that a starter smaller than about 1.5 liters is a waste of time and DME. So I started using half gallon growlers or gallon jugs to make my starters in. They won't work with the stir plate, so when I got one I had to upgrade to 2 and 5 liter flasks.

I understand what you mean. When I first saw the string I thought it was just in general but then so much discussion was about stir plates I thought it was intended for that method more or less. All good though. I got a 2L flask for myself for the stir plate when I get it going fully. I think that should allow me to brew my beers in one step and even some lagers as well.

[MtnBrewer]

I understand what you mean. When I first saw the string I thought it was just in general but then so much discussion was about stir plates I thought it was intended for that method more or less. All good though. I got a 2L flask for myself for the stir plate when I get it going fully. I think that should allow me to brew my beers in one step and even some lagers as well.

You'll have to step up the lagers.

[harryfrog]

0.5 L - 24 hrs on the stir plate 24 hrs in the fridge1-1.5 L - 24 hrs on the stir plate 24 hrs in the fridge2-4 L - 36-56 hrs on the stir plate 24 hrs in the fridgewarm up during the boil, decant, pitch slurry.Obviously, I stop at whatever point I need to stop at along the way (i.e. a 1.050 is only getting 0.5 L, while a 1.100 is getting 4L)edit: I don't use an airlock on my starters, I use the foam stoppers that allow air in the mix as the solution is stirring to get more oxygen into the mix.

So for each step, do you make a 1.050 wort to pitch the yeast into?I'm assuming liquid yeast, and if so, why bother with a starter for 1.050 beer? I thought a fresh liquid vial (white labs) was designed for a 5 gal batch of 1.050 beer?

[chuck_d]

So for each step, do you make a 1.050 wort to pitch the yeast into?I'm assuming liquid yeast, and if so, why bother with a starter for 1.050 beer? I thought a fresh liquid vial (white labs) was designed for a 5 gal batch of 1.050 beer?

I use 1.040-1.042 wort for propagation. The reason to use a starter for 1.050 beer, well... I actually think a proper pitching rate is closer to 200 billion cells than 100 (I get ~194 billion for 5.5 gallons of 12.4 P wort), so that would be two vials (each vial contains ~100 billion cells). So what's the advantage of making a starter over pitching two vials (aside from cost)? Vitality. The yeast you pitch from the starter will be fresher and will have not been subjected to the various shipping & storage conditions to get to your home. Check out the maltosefalcons link DubbelEntendre posted; it's what I base my propagation methods and calculations on.

Edited by chuck_d, 16 June 2009 - 03:51 PM.

[shmgeggie]

That chart shows less than 25 billion cells as a starting point. White Labs vials, according to their web-site, contain 70-140 billion cells. What does the chart look like when you start with, say 100 billion cells?

[chuck_d]

That chart shows less than 25 billion cells as a starting point. White Labs vials, according to their web-site, contain 70-140 billion cells. What does the chart look like when you start with, say 100 billion cells?

It's millions per mL (cell density). White Labs vials contain more than 1 mL. And it's actually showing 25 million cells/mL, not billion.edit: my typing skills suck today.

Edited by chuck_d, 16 June 2009 - 04:27 PM.

[shmgeggie]

It's millions per mL (cell density). White Labs vials contain more than 1 mL. And it's actually showing 25 million cells/mL, not billion.edit: my typing skills suck today.

Ooops.

[Jimmy James]

If you're doing multiple step-ups, what does your step up schedule look like? Do you wait until the first/second/etc. starter ferments out, chill, decant, etc?

2L on stirplate, if I need anything bigger than that I brew a lower OG beer and use the cake.

[DubbelEntendre]

I use 1.040-1.042 wort for propagation. The reason to use a starter for 1.050 beer, well... I actually think a proper pitching rate is closer to 200 billion cells than 100 (I get ~194 billion for 5.5 gallons of 12.4 P wort), so that would be two vials (each vial contains ~100 billion cells). So what's the advantage of making a starter over pitching two vials (aside from cost)? Vitality. The yeast you pitch from the starter will be fresher and will have not been subjected to the various shipping & storage conditions to get to your home. Check out the maltosefalcons link DubbelEntendre posted; it's what I base my propagation methods and calculations on.

In addition to this, I've heard recently via the Jamil Show on the Brewing Network, that a new vial of yeast doesn't really hit its stride until the third pitch. I am a yeast harvesting neophyte, so I can't comment from experience on this, but that dude knows his stuff and is a big proponent of reusing yeast, and starters to achieve proper pitching rates for clean, well attenuating fermentation.

[SchwanzBrewer]

I'm a newb, but I used a starter for the first time on my 3rd beer. I followed this. It worked really well. My first beer was under attenuated, I just threw in the smack pack. The krausen was just moderate. I made the same beer for my third and made a starter the night before, the krausen almost exploded the airlock. I threw the whole starter in, wort and all, didn't bother decanting or anything. It worked great.