15 replies to this topic

[Given2fly]

Will be brewing the following recipe this weekend. This is my first attempt at brewing a Saison, so any feedback is appreciated! I've never used Grains of Paradise before, so I wanted to keep it in the background (i.e., just noticeable), but is 1/3 teaspoon enough. I also know that the yeast strain 3724 is a tough one to work with, but it does sound as if it will ferment out with plenty of time. Let me know what you think!

Malt:
9.00 lbs. Pilsner Malt
1 lb Wheat Malt
1 lb Munich Malt
0.25 lbs. Belgian Caravienne
4 ounces Soft Belgian Candy Sugar (added at flameout)
1 lb Cane Sugar (added during fermentation)

Hops:
1 oz Mt Hood (60 min)
1 oz Mt Hood (2 min)

Adjuncts:
Tablet of Whirfloc (15 min)
1/3 Teaspoon Crushed Grains of Paradise (15 min)

Yeast:
Large Starter of Wyeast 3724 (Belgian Saison)

Mash Specs:
Mash at 148-149F for 60 min
OG: 1.070
Estimated %ABV: ~8% (assuming FG around 1.010 or lower)
IBUS: 31
SRM: 6

Fermentation Schedule:
Start temp at 68F, raise temp slowly to 76F over 10 days
1 lb of Cane Sugar (added gradually over a few days after primary fermentation subsides)

[Jimmy James]

There's a lot of room for interpretation in saison recipes so I wouldn't be able to recommend anything specific in terms of your recipe unless you described some flavor/head/mouthfeel/aroma characteristics you are shooting for. I take it from the mash and fermentation schedule you want it dry, which is the one common denominator amongst the commercial saisons I have had, so as far as that goes it looks a-ok. I'd maybe increase the sacch rest to 90 minutes.

[ncbeerbrewer]

I just brewed a Saison yesterday at a commercial brewery and while I cant argue JJ comments I would offer a few suggestions. I would drop the Munich malt and the Belgian Candi sugar. I would stick with the Wheat, Pils Cara and the sugar and let it ride from there. You never stated what your intended starting gravity is supposed to be but: I would not add sugar to the fermenting beer, you are only going to raise up your starting gravity. If mashing the grains does not get you your starting gravity then add more sugar during the boil. There is no reason to add sugar during fermentation if the yeast does not require it you will only mess up getting a good final gravity. Simple sugars are key to getting a good final gravity. Adding sugar to the fermenter I have only heard and used that technique for Wyeast 3787 Trappist High Gravity yeast. I think your spicing is fine, if the Seeds of Para dont come through enough from the 1/3 spoon you list then you can add more in secondary as well tweak it from there. Anyways those are my suggestions for you. Hope it helps.

[Recklessdeck]

My only suggestion is to change the name, "la porte de l'enfer" to simply "la porte d'enfer". There is no need for a definite article. Sorry, I'm a french major.Holy shit I just used my college education!!!

[Given2fly]

I just brewed a Saison yesterday at a commercial brewery and while I cant argue JJ comments I would offer a few suggestions. I would drop the Munich malt and the Belgian Candi sugar. I would stick with the Wheat, Pils Cara and the sugar and let it ride from there. You never stated what your intended starting gravity is supposed to be but: I would not add sugar to the fermenting beer, you are only going to raise up your starting gravity. If mashing the grains does not get you your starting gravity then add more sugar during the boil. There is no reason to add sugar during fermentation if the yeast does not require it you will only mess up getting a good final gravity. Simple sugars are key to getting a good final gravity. Adding sugar to the fermenter I have only heard and used that technique for Wyeast 3787 Trappist High Gravity yeast. I think your spicing is fine, if the Seeds of Para dont come through enough from the 1/3 spoon you list then you can add more in secondary as well tweak it from there. Anyways those are my suggestions for you. Hope it helps.

Thanks for the suggestions, I will drop out the Munich, but I'm inclined to keep the candi sugar in the mix (it's only 4 oz) - I like the richness, Candi sugar gives to Belgian ales. I've used the Trappist yeast before without having to add sugar to the fermenter, but had read that this particular yeast was sluggish after 1.035 and that the sugar additions helped it move along. Will take your advice though and leave them out.

My only suggestion is to change the name, "la porte de l'enfer" to simply "la porte d'enfer". There is no need for a definite article. Sorry, I'm a french major. Holy shit I just used my college education!!!

Thanks, my wife is French Canadian but she hasn't spoken it for awhile. When I was trying to come up with the name, we both were tinkering back and forth. Will modify as you suggest, you're the expert!

[Jimmy James]

Thanks for the suggestions, I will drop out the Munich, but I'm inclined to keep the candi sugar in the mix (it's only 4 oz) - I like the richness, Candi sugar gives to Belgian ales. I've used the Trappist yeast before without having to add sugar to the fermenter, but had read that this particular yeast was sluggish after 1.035 and that the sugar additions helped it move along. Will take your advice though and leave them out.

Regarding sugar, the rock Candi sugar in my experience adds nothing in terms of flavor. I don't spend the money on it. From what I've read in a lot of posts others agree, you're better off using plain old sugar and saving your dough for something else. The syrup form of Candi sugar on the other hand apparently does add flavor and probably the richness you are looking for. It's a dark syrup and I never find it at my LHBS - maybe it's similar to the "soft" Candi sugar you are planning to use? I am not sure if the dark syrup Candi sugar gets its color from molasses or from carmelization. Either way I would guess it could add that richness you mention. I agree with NC and would just add the sugar to the boil at T-15.

[Given2fly]

Regarding sugar, the rock Candi sugar in my experience adds nothing in terms of flavor. I don't spend the money on it. From what I've read in a lot of posts others agree, you're better off using plain old sugar and saving your dough for something else. The syrup form of Candi sugar on the other hand apparently does add flavor and probably the richness you are looking for. It's a dark syrup and I never find it at my LHBS - maybe it's similar to the "soft" Candi sugar you are planning to use? I am not sure if the dark syrup Candi sugar gets its color from molasses or from carmelization. Either way I would guess it could add that richness you mention.

I agree with NC and would just add the sugar to the boil at T-15.

Yes, it is the dark candi syrup (not sure why I listed it above as soft), I've used it before in a few other Belgian ales with success, adds a very rich quality to the final product, maybe it is from carmelization though. Here is my modified recipe thus far:

Saison: La Porte D'Enfer (From the Gates of Hell)

Malt:
9.5 lbs. Pilsner Malt
1 lb Wheat Malt
0.25 lbs. Belgian Caravienne
1 lb Cane Sugar (added at 15 min)
4 ounces Belgian Candy Syrup (added at flameout)

Hops:
1 oz Mt Hood (60 min)
1 oz Mt Hood (2 min)

Adjuncts:
Tablet of Whirfloc (15 min)
1/3 Teaspoon Crushed Grains of Paradise (15 min)

Yeast:
Starter of Wyeast 3724 (Belgian Saison)

Mash Specs:
Mash at 148-149F for 90 min
OG: ~1.070
Estimated %ABV: ~8% (assuming FG around 1.010)
IBUs: 31
SRM: 5

Fermentation Schedule:
Start temp at 68F, raise temp slowly to 76F over 10 days

Thanks for the suggestions thus far!

[ncbeerbrewer]

I like the repost of the recipe. I think that should serve you well. Good Luck, let us know how the FG turns out along with that beer in general.

[Recklessdeck]

Looks great, and actually much like the golden strong I brewed up the other day, mostly pils with wheat, sugar and caravienne. I used hallertauer and Wyeast 3787. Do let us know how it turns out, I might have to ''borrow'' your recipe.

[Jimmy James]

This is a lot like something I brewed up back in March that was Pilsener with about 15% wheat and 8% caravienne, same OG of 1.070 (no simple sugars). To dry it out I pitched Brett from Orval bottles in secondary, bottled it in April at 1.009 and tried it this weekend and it's coming into its own. At any rate, you can have a lot of fun with these Saisons and your recipe will provide a launching off point for plenty of variations if you like, with or without bugs, adjuncts, etc.

[Given2fly]

Brewed this beer yesterday, hit a starting gravity of 1.073 and the yeast are happy this morning consuming the sugar buffet. Thanks for all that helped with the recipe formulation, will let you know how the finished product turns out.

[Given2fly]

Update: This beer took almost 6 weeks to ferment from a starting gravity of 1.073 down to a 'final' gravity of 1.008. I decided midway through the fermentation (after reading Jimmy J's post) that I would experiment with this beer and add Brett to the secondary. I added the dregs from an Orval bottle to the secondary hoping to give me the Brett character that I'm looking for. I mean, who doesn't want their beer described as 'sweaty' or that it has a hint of 'horse blanket'. I expect the Brett to pick up a few more gravity points so the final gravity will be probably be around ~1.003 (9%) - nice and dry for a Saison. Plan to let this one sit for a while (3-6 months) so that I get the end result that I'm looking for, and then I'll bottle the entire batch for cellaring time.

[Given2fly]

After 3 months in the secondary, on Brettanomyces, I decided to bottle up my Saison a few nights ago. Had a final gravity of 1.003 and it tasted fantastic going into the bottles (tons of Brett character and it was pretty dry for a Saison). This beer comes in at around 9% (the gravity before secondary was 1.008 - so the Brett did it's job with some of the leftover sugars). Here's a pic of the final product:

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

What's the deal with the wax? Is it just for effect or does it actaully accomplish something? Really professional looking bottling job there

[Given2fly]

What's the deal with the wax? Is it just for effect or does it actaully accomplish something? Really professional looking bottling job there

Thanks. Wax is just for effect, I don't think it really does anything except make me keep a hold of the beer a little longer. You'd think it would make a mess of the bottles, for reuse...but it comes off with water so it's worth it if your looking to get more of a 'wow' factor. I usually only add wax if I plan to give a few bottles a way. 1.003 is dry but not necessarily too dry for a Saison. I taste-tested a bottle tonight and it was nice, little green still (only been bottled a week) but there's tons of character in this beer.