30 replies to this topic

[HerrHiller]

so I have a root room in my basement. It is about 8x4x7. I was really contemplating maybe income tax time if I had enough droppin a little on some insulation, and gettung a used door, and putting a cooling device and making a huge lager room. This obviously semed a bit lofty with my financial situation. However there is a closet in said room. It's a guestimated 3-4 fet long. By 1.5-2 feet deep. By about 6-7 feet tall. This closet is also all brick walled.I figure I could put a shelf or 2 in and I would be able to fit plent of things in there and use it as a lagering closet. The room itself could be fore ales/fermentation in general and the closet could be for lagers/aging.few questions..just how good of an insulator is brick? I am thinking it is very good. But I could be wrong? Think I'd need to do anything extra to the walls? Also what would you guys recommend as a cooling device?

[gumballhead]

so I have a root room in my basement. It is about 8x4x7. I was really contemplating maybe income tax time if I had enough droppin a little on some insulation, and gettung a used door, and putting a cooling device and making a huge lager room. This obviously semed a bit lofty with my financial situation. However there is a closet in said room. It's a guestimated 3-4 fet long. By 1.5-2 feet deep. By about 6-7 feet tall. This closet is also all brick walled.I figure I could put a shelf or 2 in and I would be able to fit plent of things in there and use it as a lagering closet. The room itself could be fore ales/fermentation in general and the closet could be for lagers/aging.few questions..just how good of an insulator is brick? I am thinking it is very good. But I could be wrong? Think I'd need to do anything extra to the walls? Also what would you guys recommend as a cooling device?

What is the room temp right now...?does it get much colder down there come Winter or does it stay about the same temp.no need to insulate it it stays the same year round unless you plan to put a small A\C unit in some where.more insulation equals smaller A\C unit needed.plus would you really need to cool the entire room or maybe just the closet.?brick, what type red clay or white cinder.both hold temp pretty evenly.but the R valueisn't muchdark undistubed constant temp are all great factors for celaring and aging.hope this helps a little bitgreat idea.

[HerrHiller]

What is the room temp right now...?does it get much colder down there come Winter or does it stay about the same temp.no need to insulate it it stays the same year round unless you plan to put a small A\C unit in some where.more insulation equals smaller A\C unit needed.plus would you really need to cool the entire room or maybe just the closet.?brick, what type red clay or white cinder.both hold temp pretty evenly.but the R valueisn't muchdark undistubed constant temp are all great factors for celaring and aging.hope this helps a little bitgreat idea.

my digital thermo actually neds new batteries. So I haven't measured/monitored the temps down there yet. I don't know about winter because I just moved in a month ago. I was planning on just cooling the closet. I want to kep the closet at a constant 50 degrees for lagering/cellaring. Then let the rest of that room be what it is. If it's aroubd 50 during winter. Cool I have more space for the season. If it's mid to upper 60's I'll put ales there. Etc. I also plan on teeing off the washer hookups and making a wash station in the other part of the basement by the floor drain, but that's another post.I just wonder what I could use to keep the closet at 50. I want it to be efficient, but I want a small footprint too.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

my digital thermo actually neds new batteries. So I haven't measured/monitored the temps down there yet. I don't know about winter because I just moved in a month ago. I was planning on just cooling the closet. I want to kep the closet at a constant 50 degrees for lagering/cellaring. Then let the rest of that room be what it is. If it's aroubd 50 during winter. Cool I have more space for the season. If it's mid to upper 60's I'll put ales there. Etc. I also plan on teeing off the washer hookups and making a wash station in the other part of the basement by the floor drain, but that's another post.I just wonder what I could use to keep the closet at 50. I want it to be efficient, but I want a small footprint too.

I'd see how it goes this winter for a couple of reasons:1. it might be cold enough to ferment lagers down there anyway2. you are renting right? I wouldn't want to invest in getting set up in a place that isn't my permanent residence.

[earthtone]

brick is a terrible insulator...that's why it's cold when you touch it rule of thumb, things that transfer heat readily feel cold even when they are at room temperature. For example a steel rod laying in a room is the same temperature as the air - it feels cold because it is conductive and will suck heat from your warm fingers not because it is colder. Bricks are better insulators than steel....but not by much. If you cool down a room with a brick wall you will also be cooling whatever is on the other side of said wall...

[EWW]

I know this is a brewing forum, but I'd save the money for any unexpected vet bills :wink:

[djinkc]

To do it right and cheap you will have to be a great scrounger and and excellent DIY guy. Then when you move you're hosed. IIRC, no DIY and no time to scrounge. Just figure out the temps in the area and brew for the season. It's been done for centuries.

Edited by djinkc, 25 October 2010 - 07:21 PM.

[HerrHiller]

To do it right and cheap you will have to be a great scrounger and and excellent DIY guy. Then when you move you're hosed. IIRC, no DIY and no time to scrounge. Just figure out the temps in the area and brew for the season. It's been done for centuries.

i was gonna just brew for season in most of the cellar, but i wanted to make the closet good for lagering/cellaring all year round. I'm not trying to break the bank here. it doesnt have to be super cold. just 50 degrees. i figure a lil insulation on the brick, and it allready has shelves in the closet that are quite sturdy. I figure i could just take all the shelves out except the middle one. throw a cooling device in there, and put a nice vinyl door with rummer sealer around it like a refrigerator. it realy doesnt seem like that big of an investment to me. maybe i am missing something though? as far as doing it right, I know a jack for just about every trade. and all those jacks are generally willing to help when it comes to my beer production.

[cavman]

i was gonna just brew for season in most of the cellar, but i wanted to make the closet good for lagering/cellaring all year round. I'm not trying to break the bank here. it doesnt have to be super cold. just 50 degrees. i figure a lil insulation on the brick, and it allready has shelves in the closet that are quite sturdy. I figure i could just take all the shelves out except the middle one. throw a cooling device in there, and put a nice vinyl door with rummer sealer around it like a refrigerator. it realy doesnt seem like that big of an investment to me. maybe i am missing something though? as far as doing it right, I know a jack for just about every trade. and all those jacks are generally willing to help when it comes to my beer production.

If you can trade beer for parts and get it done free then do so. The basement may stay cool enough for some lager-like ales such as Alt and Kolsch which IMO are just as good. Don't spend money to lager just for the sake of it, great beers with similar profiles can be made without the expense of lagering. Don't be afraid to try different things in your brewing, such as room temp lagering under pressure to get lagerlike beers. You need cornies to do this or another fermenting vessel that holds pressure. PM if any questions.

[earthtone]

i was gonna just brew for season in most of the cellar, but i wanted to make the closet good for lagering/cellaring all year round. I'm not trying to break the bank here. it doesnt have to be super cold. just 50 degrees. i figure a lil insulation on the brick, and it allready has shelves in the closet that are quite sturdy. I figure i could just take all the shelves out except the middle one. throw a cooling device in there, and put a nice vinyl door with rummer sealer around it like a refrigerator. it realy doesnt seem like that big of an investment to me. maybe i am missing something though? as far as doing it right, I know a jack for just about every trade. and all those jacks are generally willing to help when it comes to my beer production.

insulation doesn't like leaks, adding insulation while there are still leaks negates much of the potential of the insulation - you can probably calculate the size of refrigeration system you'll need but that's all up in the air if air can get in and out freely and parts of the wall (ie. where existing shelves are attached) remain uninsulated. Of course you could just throw it together but I'm going to bet you'll be breaking the bank on a power bill in warmer seasons when a poorly contained fridge will be running 24/7. I know even adding a second fridge upped my power bill quite a bit. not saying don't go for it, just not sure it's the best option for the space - you could probably find a cheap old chest freezer and move it into the basement for a similar price and all you need then is a temp controller and you're golden. Lager year round.unless you're going to frame out the closet (remove the shelving) and build basically a free standing lager chamber within the closet and tape all the seams in the insulation, etc. like many of the projects on here it just doesn't make sense to me to do this. And you wanted to do it cheap so.... unless you can scrounge a lot of 2x2 lumber and rigid insulation it's gonna be pricy.$0.02

[HerrHiller]

insulation doesn't like leaks, adding insulation while there are still leaks negates much of the potential of the insulation - you can probably calculate the size of refrigeration system you'll need but that's all up in the air if air can get in and out freely and parts of the wall (ie. where existing shelves are attached) remain uninsulated. Of course you could just throw it together but I'm going to bet you'll be breaking the bank on a power bill in warmer seasons when a poorly contained fridge will be running 24/7. I know even adding a second fridge upped my power bill quite a bit. not saying don't go for it, just not sure it's the best option for the space - you could probably find a cheap old chest freezer and move it into the basement for a similar price and all you need then is a temp controller and you're golden. Lager year round.unless you're going to frame out the closet (remove the shelving) and build basically a free standing lager chamber within the closet and tape all the seams in the insulation, etc. like many of the projects on here it just doesn't make sense to me to do this. And you wanted to do it cheap so.... unless you can scrounge a lot of 2x2 lumber and rigid insulation it's gonna be pricy.$0.02

well i was planning on doing it right. i just figured such it is such a tiny closet. (I cant find my tape measure so i cant actually measure it. but like i said around 1.5-2 feet deep. 3-4 feet wide, and like 6 feet tall. I figure it wouldn't take that much material to do it right. If I were ever to buy a chest freezer that would be for kegeration. I partially wanna do this just for the romanticism of the whole thing. Storing my beer and aging it in a root cellar used for aging things. just seems very neat to me.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

To do it right and cheap you will have to be a great scrounger and and excellent DIY guy. Then when you move you're hosed. IIRC, no DIY and no time to scrounge. Just figure out the temps in the area and brew for the season. It's been done for centuries.

This is the biggest thing for me. I wouldn't want to invest in a permanent installation in a place that isn't my own place. If you could figure out something that is easily moveable to your next residence maybe I'd consider it.

[Mynameisluka]

This is the biggest thing for me. I wouldn't want to invest in a permanent installation in a place that isn't my own place. If you could figure out something that is easily moveable to your next residence maybe I'd consider it.

same here.the only way that i can think of doing it that makes sense is to take all of the shelves out of the room and line the whole room with rigid insulation and just tape it together in such a way that it holds itself in place. the only problem with rigid insulation is the low r value...the best you will find is probably around r6.as far as cooling the room, i'm not sure what your best option would be. a portable ac unit ventilated to the outside somehow would be best, but that'll cost you a few hundred $.

[HerrHiller]

same here.the only way that i can think of doing it that makes sense is to take all of the shelves out of the room and line the whole room with rigid insulation and just tape it together in such a way that it holds itself in place. the only problem with rigid insulation is the low r value...the best you will find is probably around r6.as far as cooling the room, i'm not sure what your best option would be. a portable ac unit ventilated to the outside somehow would be best, but that'll cost you a few hundred $.

I am not trying to cool the room. just this tiny closet. the rest of the room i am leaving alone and just going to put ales in it probably.

[Mynameisluka]

I am not trying to cool the room. just this tiny closet. the rest of the room i am leaving alone and just going to put ales in it probably.

i got that...just replace "room" with "tiny closet" and my response is all the same. the issue with cooling is this. if you somehow install a window unit in the door to this closet for cooling, you are going to end up heating (significantly) the larger room.maybe a swamp cooler would work in this situation, i dunno.

[Mynameisluka]

i guess my thing is this...this is likely going to cost you quite a bit to cool, no matter how you cool it, simply because you think it would be neat to have. from what i understand, you have much better things that money could be spent on, and this project is probably one that you should pass on until you get into a better financial position.

Edited by chris, 26 October 2010 - 08:08 AM.

[HerrHiller]

i guess my thing is this...this is likely going to cost you quite a bit to cool, no matter how you cool it, simply because you think it would be neat to have. from what i understand, you have much better things that money could be spent on, and this project is probably one that you should pass on until you get into a better financial position.

right on. i thought maybe there would be a cheap way to cool it. like i had seen some chambers built that were cooled with a couple case fans. they were much smaller, but i still thought i could do it with maybe a bigger fan or something. That' the main reason i posted here, to see just how in over my head I was. now I see.

[strangebrewer]

brick is a terrible insulator...that's why it's cold when you touch it rule of thumb, things that transfer heat readily feel cold even when they are at room temperature. For example a steel rod laying in a room is the same temperature as the air - it feels cold because it is conductive and will suck heat from your warm fingers not because it is colder. Bricks are better insulators than steel....but not by much. If you cool down a room with a brick wall you will also be cooling whatever is on the other side of said wall...

insulation doesn't like leaks, adding insulation while there are still leaks negates much of the potential of the insulation - you can probably calculate the size of refrigeration system you'll need but that's all up in the air if air can get in and out freely and parts of the wall (ie. where existing shelves are attached) remain uninsulated. Of course you could just throw it together but I'm going to bet you'll be breaking the bank on a power bill in warmer seasons when a poorly contained fridge will be running 24/7. I know even adding a second fridge upped my power bill quite a bit. not saying don't go for it, just not sure it's the best option for the space - you could probably find a cheap old chest freezer and move it into the basement for a similar price and all you need then is a temp controller and you're golden. Lager year round.unless you're going to frame out the closet (remove the shelving) and build basically a free standing lager chamber within the closet and tape all the seams in the insulation, etc. like many of the projects on here it just doesn't make sense to me to do this. And you wanted to do it cheap so.... unless you can scrounge a lot of 2x2 lumber and rigid insulation it's gonna be pricy.$0.02

+1000000000000000000The #1 thing you need to do is figure out what the ambient temperature in that room is. If you are aiming for 50°F and it's 60°F in there then you have some work to do. 10°F doesn't sound like much but when you're talking about concrete floors and brick walls it's significant because those things have HUGE thermal mass that you are not going to be able to change.The only way to achieve this is to do what earthtone suggested. Frame it out with 2x4's, layer in as much rigid foam insulation as you can manage and seal the seams. You need to insulate the space from the brick and the concrete if you want it to be colder than them.I'm designing a wine cellar myself and still trying to decide if I can do passive cooling to keep it a stable temp. In the case of passive cooling you want to expose as much of the foundation walls as possible and circulate air over those walls but as stated the room temp will be whatever the temp of the concrete is. Option 2 is active cooling in which case you have to cover every wall and even insulate the floor and depend on an AC unit to do all cooling. If you leave any concrete surface exposed your AC unit will be fighting it and in the case of a concrete foundation the AC unit will loose.

[Mynameisluka]

+1000000000000000000In the case of passive cooling you want to expose as much of the foundation walls as possible and circulate air over those walls but as stated the room temp will be whatever the temp of the concrete is.

As long as the concrete is cold enough, this is probably the most rational and affordable solution.

[Deerslyr]

This is a basement root cellar... it's a far cry better even without the insulation than what most of us have at our disposal. I think this winter could be an excellent brewing season for you Jon. Take an ambient temp reading now. If it's good to go, I'd get a Kolsch underway! You may have perfect temps for that if you are in the mid to high 50s.