22 replies to this topic

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

Any Berliner Weisse brewers around? I'd like to try adding 5.5 gallons of 150 water to 6# of grain. Mash for an hour and run it all off. After I'll do a short 5 or 10 minute boil. Any issues with doing a Berliner Weisse this way? ph issues?

[davelew]

Any Berliner Weisse brewers around? I'd like to try adding 5.5 gallons of 150 water to 6# of grain. Mash for an hour and run it all off. After I'll do a short 5 or 10 minute boil. Any issues with doing a Berliner Weisse this way? ph issues?

My recipe for a Berliner Weisse:Mash grain normally at 150.Sparge with 150 water.Drain into fermenter.Add a handful of uncracked grain.Ferment at 85 dF for two weeks.Age for a few months.I'm not sure what the no-sparge technique would add to a Berliner Weisse. Usually, a no-sparge beer is made to accentuate the maltiness, but the BW style isn't really about maltiness. Also, I've never understood the point of boiling a Berliner Weisse. Lacto, Brett, Pedio, and wild yeasts are all part of the style, so you don't need a boil for sanitation. Cloudy beer and a a very light color are also to style, so I don't see what is gained by boiling.

[BrewerGeorge]

Sounds like a good idea except I don't think that's enough grain. No sparge will get you about 55% efficiency, so you're only looking at a 1.020 OG.You will still want to have correct pH for that light malt and your water during the mash, of course.I like the idea of the 10-15 minute boil, and I've been planning something similar myself, but haven't gotten around to it yet.

...Also, I've never understood the point of boiling a Berliner Weisse. Lacto, Brett, Pedio, and wild yeasts are all part of the style, so you don't need a boil for sanitation. Cloudy beer and a a very light color are also to style, so I don't see what is gained by boiling.

More control, and no chance of exposing your fermenting and serving gear to lacto, brett, pedio, etc.I have a 'starter' gallon of lacto-fermented wort from the last batch that I add to each new batch before the boil. That gives complexity. I then ferment with ale yeast and add the bulk of the sourness with prepared lactic acid and a little bit of acid blend.It's not perfectly traditional, but it's exactly the same every time, and has no chance of contaminating my stuff.

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

My recipe for a Berliner Weisse:Mash grain normally at 150.Sparge with 150 water.Drain into fermenter.Add a handful of uncracked grain.Ferment at 85 dF for two weeks.Age for a few months.I'm not sure what the no-sparge technique would add to a Berliner Weisse. Usually, a no-sparge beer is made to accentuate the maltiness, but the BW style isn't really about maltiness. Also, I've never understood the point of boiling a Berliner Weisse. Lacto, Brett, Pedio, and wild yeasts are all part of the style, so you don't need a boil for sanitation. Cloudy beer and a a very light color are also to style, so I don't see what is gained by boiling.

I have wanted to do it your way as well. I have the bw culture from wyeast so I may do your way and my way side by side. I've read you get a cleaner sourness with a pure lacto culture. No sparge is just for ease, no other reason.How does your BW come out?

Sounds like a good idea except I don't think that's enough grain. No sparge will get you about 55% efficiency, so you're only looking at a 1.020 OG.You will still want to have correct pH for that light malt and your water during the mash, of course.I like the idea of the 10-15 minute boil, and I've been planning something similar myself, but haven't gotten around to it yet.More control, and no chance of exposing your fermenting and serving gear to lacto, brett, pedio, etc.I have a 'starter' gallon of lacto-fermented wort from the last batch that I add to each new batch before the boil. That gives complexity. I then ferment with ale yeast and add the bulk of the sourness with prepared lactic acid and a little bit of acid blend.It's not perfectly traditional, but it's exactly the same every time, and has no chance of contaminating my stuff.

You think efficency will only be 55% with 6# of grain in 5.5 gallons of water? My calculation was based on 65% I figured with that much water a lot of sugar would come into solution.Yes, the short boil is to control the bugs.Would 5.2 do the job for pH? I have some but have not used it.

[BrewerGeorge]

...You think efficency will only be 55% with 6# of grain in 5.5 gallons of water? My calculation was based on 65% I figured with that much water a lot of sugar would come into solution.Yes, the short boil is to control the bugs.Would 5.2 do the job for pH? I have some but have not used it.

55% is the generally accepted starting point for no-sparge the way 75% is for batch sparge. You might have a point that the higher water ratio would get more sugar. I can't say for sure. I'd rather use too much grain, though, than too little. You can always easily add more water before boil if the OG is too high.5.2 would be better than nothing, certainly.

[davelew]

I have wanted to do it your way as well. I have the bw culture from wyeast so I may do your way and my way side by side. I've read you get a cleaner sourness with a pure lacto culture. No sparge is just for ease, no other reason.How does your BW come out?

Every batch is a little different. My current batch is a little more lemonade-like than previous ones-- extreme tartness and malty sweetness that co-exist but don't cancel each other out.Fermenting with a neutral ale yeast, I've never been able to get the sourness I want. I've had a bunch of bottled Berliner Weisses that have been pretty bland. The best commercial BW that I've had was a DFH Festina Peche served on tap at a beer festival in 2008, and I shoot more for the over-the-top sourness of that brew (DFH recently changed the recipe for Festina Peche and it's not as sour any more ).

You think efficency will only be 55% with 6# of grain in 5.5 gallons of water? My calculation was based on 65% I figured with that much water a lot of sugar would come into solution.

I think 55% efficiency for no-sparge beers is based more on high gravity beers, not super low gravity beers. Thislink has an equation for what to expect for gravity of first runnings. Plugging in 5.5 gallons (20.8 litres) and 6 pounds (2.7 kg), I get an FG of 1.036 with 100% conversion efficiency. In reality, a "good" mash should be between 90% and 100% conversion efficiency (which is very different from mash efficiency), so your first, last and only runnings should be at 1.032 to 1.036.

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

Every batch is a little different. My current batch is a little more lemonade-like than previous ones-- extreme tartness and malty sweetness that co-exist but don't cancel each other out.Fermenting with a neutral ale yeast, I've never been able to get the sourness I want. I've had a bunch of bottled Berliner Weisses that have been pretty bland. The best commercial BW that I've had was a DFH Festina Peche served on tap at a beer festival in 2008, and I shoot more for the over-the-top sourness of that brew (DFH recently changed the recipe for Festina Peche and it's not as sour any more ).I think 55% efficiency for no-sparge beers is based more on high gravity beers, not super low gravity beers. Thislink has an equation for what to expect for gravity of first runnings. Plugging in 5.5 gallons (20.8 litres) and 6 pounds (2.7 kg), I get an FG of 1.036 with 100% conversion efficiency. In reality, a "good" mash should be between 90% and 100% conversion efficiency (which is very different from mash efficiency), so your first, last and only runnings should be at 1.032 to 1.036.

I was calculating 37 points per pound x 6lbs = 222 points x 65% = 144.3 / 5 gallons (.5 gallon absobtion) = 1.029 A short boil will consentrate it a bit, getting me to 1.030ish.What temp do you ferment at? I've read lacto likes it warm.

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

55% is the generally accepted starting point for no-sparge the way 75% is for batch sparge. You might have a point that the higher water ratio would get more sugar. I can't say for sure. I'd rather use too much grain, though, than too little. You can always easily add more water before boil if the OG is too high.5.2 would be better than nothing, certainly.

Would acid malt be better? Or acid in the mash?

[Malzig]

I think 55% efficiency for no-sparge beers is based more on high gravity beers, not super low gravity beers. Thislink has an equation for what to expect for gravity of first runnings. Plugging in 5.5 gallons (20.8 litres) and 6 pounds (2.7 kg), I get an FG of 1.036 with 100% conversion efficiency. In reality, a "good" mash should be between 90% and 100% conversion efficiency (which is very different from mash efficiency), so your first, last and only runnings should be at 1.032 to 1.036.

This is more in line with what I see for low gravity No-Sparge beers.I'd use 6 gallons in 6#s, to account for grain absorption and a little water evaporation during a 10 minute boil, and expect ~1.030-1.032 on my system, pre-boil. Like you say, your OG is almost entirely dependent on conversion efficiency in a No-Sparge mash, but conversion is helped by the thinner mash that I use with low OG batches, so hitting 90-95% conversion is typical within a 60' mash.

[davelew]

I was calculating 37 points per pound x 6lbs = 222 points x 65% = 144.3 / 5 gallons (.5 gallon absobtion) = 1.029 A short boil will consentrate it a bit, getting me to 1.030ish.What temp do you ferment at? I've read lacto likes it warm.

I think your 65% number might be low. If you were no-sparging a beer with a pre-boil SG of 1.050, you would leave 1.050 wort behind in the mash tun. That will hurt your efficiency. If you no-sparge a beer with a pre-boil SG of 1.030, you leave 1.030 wort behind in the mashtun, and that doesn't hurt your efficiency nearly as much.I ferment my Berliner Weisses at 85dF. The easiest way to do this is to put the fermenter in a big water bath, and stick a fishtank heater in the water bath. The hardest way to do it is to build a peltier-chip based fermentation chamber with two water pumps where the wires keep corroding and need to be replaced every couple years (can you guess what I'll be doing next weekend?).

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

I ferment my Berliner Weisses at 85dF. The easiest way to do this is to put the fermenter in a big water bath, and stick a fishtank heater in the water bath. The hardest way to do it is to build a peltier-chip based fermentation chamber with two water pumps where the wires keep corroding and need to be replaced every couple years (can you guess what I'll be doing next weekend?).

I use a fish tank heater/tub for my belgians. That's what I was planning on. Thanks. I think I'll ferment it cooler in the beginning so the ale yeast doesn't get to funky upfront. After 2 days, I'll start ramping up the temp to 85F.

[davelew]

I use a fish tank heater/tub for my belgians. That's what I was planning on. Thanks. I think I'll ferment it cooler in the beginning so the ale yeast doesn't get to funky upfront. After 2 days, I'll start ramping up the temp to 85F.

[sierra madre]Ale yeast? Ale yeast? Berliner Weisses don't need no stinkin' ale yeasts.[/sierra madre]

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

[sierra madre]Ale yeast? Ale yeast? Berliner Weisses don't need no stinkin' ale yeasts.[/sierra madre]

There has to be some kind of yeast in there for alcohol production.

[davelew]

There has to be some kind of yeast in there for alcohol production.

Is this true? I always thought a lot of other bugs, like Brett, also made alcohol.

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

Is this true? I always thought a lot of other bugs, like Brett, also made alcohol.

Brett is a yeast and can make alcohol. I don't think the bugs like lacto, pedio or acetebater can.

[strangebrewer]

Brett is a yeast and can make alcohol. I don't think the bugs like lacto, pedio or acetebater can.

Some strains of lactobacillus can produce alcohol. The ones used in brewing are often of that variety. I don't recall if pediococcus produces any significant amount of alcohol or not. I'm leaning more towards not but I'm not 100% on that. Acetobacter consumes alcohol and produces acetic acid.

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

Some strains of lactobacillus can produce alcohol. The ones used in brewing are often of that variety. I don't recall if pediococcus produces any significant amount of alcohol or not. I'm leaning more towards not but I'm not 100% on that. Acetobacter consumes alcohol and produces acetic acid.

So could you do a 100% lacto fermentation?

[strangebrewer]

So could you do a 100% lacto fermentation?

Sure. There are some catches though. Lacto is slow, so it would take it a while to chew through a batch. Second most strains have a low ABV tolerance like 3-4% though there are some good to around 8% ABV. Third, lacto is hop-a-phobic so you have to keep the IBU's real low (8-10 IBU) as it just quivers in the presence of hop alpha acids. Fourth, lacto will quit at a pH of around 3.8. I've never tried an all lacto brew so I don't know which of these walls you'd hit first but you want to keep them all in mind when playing with that particular bug.

[realbeerguy]

Would acid malt be better? Or acid in the mash?

I add acid malt after 15 min of mashing.

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

I add acid malt after 15 min of mashing.

I ended up with:3# Pils2# wheat malt1# torrified wheat.5# acid maltNo salt or 5.2 addition.I didn't "no sparge", but I did do my first batch sparge. Efficiency was average 75% I pitched the berliner weisse blend from wyeast. The pack hadn't swelled so I hope it goes. I hate the uncertainty of yeast shipped in warm months.