24 replies to this topic

[Deerslyr]

Ok, so I'm in the beginning stages of planning a lager. My question has to do with my equipment. Currently, I use the plastic fermenting buckets. Can I safely ferment and lager a beer with just the plastic fermenters? I don't have any desire to buy a glass carboy, and I'd prefer to not have to buy a Better Bottle. I like my fermenters because of the spigot assembly in the bottom.Thoughts? Comments?

[chuck_d]

I use plastic for my lagers, vittles vaults.Rather than having to deal with cleaning it's funky lid, I just sealed it with food grade silicone caulk. The below shot is from inside the bucket.

Edited by chuck_d, 20 August 2010 - 02:12 PM.

[Big Nake]

I do my primaries in plastic, my secondaries (at cellar temps) in 5-gal glass carboys and then the lager gets sent to a keg, chilled, gelled, carbed and then it sits until there is a vacancy. I think you could primary in plastic and then rack off the yeast into another plastic bucket that could be sent to a fridge. I see no problem with it as long as the lid and airlock are secure. Personally, I am scared of the glas carboys... especially when they're full and I have to carry them and there may be condensation on the outside of them (if they're cold)... oh and slippery from the Starsan, etc. Yikes.

[chuck_d]

I'm paranoid of carboys too. I use those canvas straps whenever I use a carboy.

[Deerslyr]

I do my primaries in plastic, my secondaries (at cellar temps) in 5-gal glass carboys and then the lager gets sent to a keg, chilled, gelled, carbed and then it sits until there is a vacancy. I think you could primary in plastic and then rack off the yeast into another plastic bucket that could be sent to a fridge. I see no problem with it as long as the lid and airlock are secure. Personally, I am scared of the glas carboys... especially when they're full and I have to carry them and there may be condensation on the outside of them (if they're cold)... oh and slippery from the Starsan, etc. Yikes.

Forgot about the kegs! Ok, so help me on my timing here (I know it's all approximate/YMMV type disclaimers)Primary in plastic until...Secondary in plastic until...Cold storage in keg....

[MtnBrewer]

I go from primary to keg. Just one less transfer I have to make. So primary until it ferments out (including optional d-rest), then keg and lager for about 6-8 weeks.

[Big Nake]

Forgot about the kegs! Ok, so help me on my timing here (I know it's all approximate/YMMV type disclaimers)Primary in plastic until...Secondary in plastic until...Cold storage in keg....

MTN's timeframe is what I would say and going from plastic primary to keg is always an option. You could ferment, d-rest, make sure you have reached FG and then chill the primary for 2-3 weeks and then rack to a keg. Just a thought. But I don't really set up timelines because I just let the primary dictate what's going to happen. So... Primary until FG is reached and optional d-rest has been done. Use your hydrometer in case you fermented at a cool temp and the yeast took a coffee break.Secondary in plastic until you can't stand it anymore. My "lager" sessions have been as short as 2 weeks (beer was good) and as long as 5 months (beer was good). This is not critical IMO. If you did all of the right stuff with primary (used a good recipe, pitched a good amount of active yeast, oxygenated well, pitched into lager wort that was at or below the temp you want to ferment at, etc.) then the secondary is less critical. You could secondary cold in plastic for as long as you need to.The cold storage in the keg is the same. Sometimes I have 4 kegs on tap and 2 cold kegs in reserve and those reserve kegs sit there for 6-8 weeks for whatever the reason. It's not an issue... the longer it sits cold in a keg, the longer you're "lagering". Cheers Amigo!

[Deerslyr]

MTN's timeframe is what I would say and going from plastic primary to keg is always an option. You could ferment, d-rest, make sure you have reached FG and then chill the primary for 2-3 weeks and then rack to a keg. Just a thought. But I don't really set up timelines because I just let the primary dictate what's going to happen. So... Primary until FG is reached and optional d-rest has been done. Use your hydrometer in case you fermented at a cool temp and the yeast took a coffee break.Secondary in plastic until you can't stand it anymore. My "lager" sessions have been as short as 2 weeks (beer was good) and as long as 5 months (beer was good). This is not critical IMO. If you did all of the right stuff with primary (used a good recipe, pitched a good amount of active yeast, oxygenated well, pitched into lager wort that was at or below the temp you want to ferment at, etc.) then the secondary is less critical. You could secondary cold in plastic for as long as you need to.The cold storage in the keg is the same. Sometimes I have 4 kegs on tap and 2 cold kegs in reserve and those reserve kegs sit there for 6-8 weeks for whatever the reason. It's not an issue... the longer it sits cold in a keg, the longer you're "lagering". Cheers Amigo!

Not to beat a dead horse... are you saying I can do secondary in plastic or in the keg?Given the equipment that you know I have... 2 plastic buckets, a keg, a chest freezer... how exactly would you go about the lager? (Maybe this is how I should have posted the question in the first place) Feel free to use examples with temperature changes, etc.

[davelew]

Not to beat a dead horse... are you saying I can do secondary in plastic or in the keg?Given the equipment that you know I have... 2 plastic buckets, a keg, a chest freezer... how exactly would you go about the lager? (Maybe this is how I should have posted the question in the first place) Feel free to use examples with temperature changes, etc.

Primary in a plastic bucket, until the hydrometer says you're done. Keep temperature around 50dF.Chill by 2dF a day until you reach 34dF (8 days).Rack to a keg, add enough CO2 to seal.Store at 34dF for a couple of weeks (I like to do at least 1 day per degree plato)Carb & consume.

[Rick]

If you did all of the right stuff with primary (used a good recipe, pitched a good amount of active yeast, oxygenated well, pitched into lager wort that was at or below the temp you want to ferment at, etc.) then the secondary is less critical.

Ken's advice above is key for a well brewed lager. Follow that first.Let your beer ferment out in your bucket and give the yeast time to clean up. Transfer to a keg and let it lager in your chest freezer for a couple weeks. I recommend tasting it as time goes by, allowing you see taste and see the changes in the beer and to pull out any yeast that settles. This exercise will give you knowledge of when to expect your next to be mature.That's the way I do it and find it to be a fun learning experience.

[Big Nake]

Primary in a plastic bucket, until the hydrometer says you're done. Keep temperature around 50dF.Chill by 2dF a day until you reach 34dF (8 days).Rack to a keg, add enough CO2 to seal.Store at 34dF for a couple of weeks (I like to do at least 1 day per degree plato)Carb & consume.

There you go.One question is whether you trust a plastic vessel for extended lagering of a beer. Some people have suggested that for a short-term time (like primary where there is constant outward pressure), a plastic container is fine. But some people question how well the plastic seals (the way the lid fits, the way the airlock stays fits into the grommet, etc.) and whether all of that is suitable for long-term storage. I think I would attempt to lager in an additional plastic vessel if that was the only way I could do it. But the other option is the one I described above... primary, d-rest, chill in the primary, wait for things to settle, rack to keg. The other question is whether to lager the beer "carbed" or flat. Personally, I send to a keg at cellar temps, then chill overnight, add gel solution to the keg, then carb at 30psi for 48 hours, then keep it cold and under pressure until it's ready to hit the taps. Cheers!

[Deerslyr]

Thanks guys. I've done some lagers with a buddy, but they fermented and lagered at his place. Now I just need to settle on a recipe, get off my ass and make a starter, and brew. Oh, I should also invest in an oxygenator. I had almost forgot until you guys mentioned it.

[Big Nake]

Yeah, get an oxygenation stone that you can connect to an O2 canister if possible. There are a bunch of lagers on my recipe page ranging from BMC type stuff to Red Lagers, Amber Lagers, Oktobers, Marzens, Pilsner, Helles, Bock, Vienna, etc. Cheers!

[Deerslyr]

Yeah, get an oxygenation stone that you can connect to an O2 canister if possible. There are a bunch of lagers on my recipe page ranging from BMC type stuff to Red Lagers, Amber Lagers, Oktobers, Marzens, Pilsner, Helles, Bock, Vienna, etc. Cheers!

Actually, I've been trying to find one on your page...Like I said, I've got 55 pounds of Pilsner. I've got 65 pounds or so of 2 Row. I've got about 30 pounds of wheat malt. A handful of other grains... but easy access to an LHBS. Any suggestions? I'd like it heavy on Pilsner malt. I've got plenty of Cascade hops. I think I have some Magnum and Perle as well... suggestions?

[Big Nake]

Actually, I've been trying to find one on your page...Like I said, I've got 55 pounds of Pilsner. I've got 65 pounds or so of 2 Row. I've got about 30 pounds of wheat malt. A handful of other grains... but easy access to an LHBS. Any suggestions? I'd like it heavy on Pilsner malt. I've got plenty of Cascade hops. I think I have some Magnum and Perle as well... suggestions?

Well, I can't think of a lager that I have with pils and Cascade, but continue to look and see if anything catches your attention and maybe you could improvise. All of those recipes have been brewed at least twice and they are solid recipes. The Biergarten Pilsner is ALL pilsner malt. But you'd need some noble hops and a good pilsner-producing yeast. What lager yeasts do you have on hand?

[Deerslyr]

Well, I can't think of a lager that I have with pils and Cascade, but continue to look and see if anything catches your attention and maybe you could improvise. All of those recipes have been brewed at least twice and they are solid recipes. The Biergarten Pilsner is ALL pilsner malt. But you'd need some noble hops and a good pilsner-producing yeast. What lager yeasts do you have on hand?

I'm flexible with hops and yeast. I have a really good LHBS at my disposal that is between work and home.

[Big Nake]

I'm flexible with hops and yeast. I have a really good LHBS at my disposal that is between work and home.

You know what's really good and a lager that's coming up on my list here? Fest Marzenbier. Mostly pils, some Munich & Vienna, a bit of crystal, Styrian Goldings, Mt. Hood, Hallertau and 2206. A really, really nice beer and perfect for "Fest Season". If you haven't made any (or many) lagers, the 2206 may be one of the most unique lager strains around. It produces a very deep, malty-tasting beer. You could make another 2 or 3 batches with this yeast and there are a few other recipes on my site that call for it. There's also a picture of it in the gallery on my site and I just realized that I keep making my Oktoberfest Lager for fest season (I made 2 batches this year and they're both gone! Long story.) and I haven't made this recipe in 2 years. I have the 2206, Munich, Pils and Vienna but I need to pick up some of these hops. The 2206 is very forgiving too. Check it out. Cheers.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Just to say it again:I've gone right from primary to keg with one of my lagers. Didn't seem to cause any problem other than a little extra yeast on the first few pours but after that it was the same as the lagers that I did the extra transfer on. When I did this I fermented until it was very close to done, raised the temp up for the d-rest for a couple of days and then I stuck the primary into the cold storage fridge for a few more days. After this I racked to the keg, carbed, and then kept it cold until ready to consume. I like to crash the primary prior to racking to help as much stuff as possible drop out.

[Big Nake]

Just to say it again:I've gone right from primary to keg with one of my lagers. Didn't seem to cause any problem other than a little extra yeast on the first few pours but after that it was the same as the lagers that I did the extra transfer on. When I did this I fermented until it was very close to done, raised the temp up for the d-rest for a couple of days and then I stuck the primary into the cold storage fridge for a few more days. After this I racked to the keg, carbed, and then kept it cold until ready to consume. I like to crash the primary prior to racking to help as much stuff as possible drop out.

I love the sound of this but depending on your schedule(s), it could be an issue... at least for me. When I have lager yeast up & running, I generally want to get my hands on it again so I can make another beer. As a result, I usually have anywhere from 4 to 6 beers sitting in glass secondaries waiting to be sent to a keg. Yes, I have to clean & sanitize those secondaries, rack the beer, possibly expose it it oxygen, etc. But I use gel solution in the glass secondary and those 6 vessels are used as extra storage space for me. They have become a very important part of the way I brew.

[MtnBrewer]

The way I look at it, secondary is lagering. I don't see a need for an extra step in there.