11 replies to this topic

[BrewerGeorge]

Last year at the NHBC the session on Berliner Weisse mentioned 3 different ways of making them. One was to sour a small batch of beer with lactobacillus and use it to sour a big batch. The idea being that a gallon would get really sour over time and could "dilute" that sourness with a finished, bigger batch of unsoured beer to hit the 3-4% acidity target.So I tried that, and I have had a gallon of lacto wort hanging out in a cabinet for almost a year now. I opened it up to sample the other day thinking I would use it for this summer's batch of Berlinner. Problem is that it is just barely sour enough for finished a Berlinner and not nearly sour enough to provide all the tartness for 10 (or even 5) gallons. It's completely dry, too, so I know it is out of sugar and won't be getting any more sour.Thinking about it, it makes total sense and, I think, exposes a flaw in the whole method of souring a beer. The lacto are going to eat the same stuff yeast would eat, so it only makes sense that a 1.031 wort doesn't have a lot of food to begin with and cannot make a super-sour batch.Has anybody had success with this method? If so, what did you do? I can imagine it might work if you innoculated a 1.90 wort, but a 1.031 is never going to cut it.Looks like it will be another year of acid blend and prepared lactic acid Berlinner Weisse.

[Yeasty Boy]

The only one I made was the mash-hop, no-boil, handful-o-malt, pitch yeast after 24hr method. It got pleasantly sour after about two months, with a minor and pleasant (to me) Brett note in the nose. This is supposed to be drunk fresh, so I'm a bit unclear how they got away with anything remotely consistent.

[Jimmy James]

George, did you inoculate the 1 gallon of wort directly with Lacto, or after inoculating with yeast? What temp have you kept it at? Just curious. I think you need to keep it fairly warm for the lacto to do much. Is the wort still sweet? If you put lacto into sweet wort, with nothing else (no yeast) then you should get it to sour.

[BrewerGeorge]

George, did you inoculate the 1 gallon of wort directly with Lacto, or after inoculating with yeast? What temp have you kept it at? Just curious. I think you need to keep it fairly warm for the lacto to do much. Is the wort still sweet? If you put lacto into sweet wort, with nothing else (no yeast) then you should get it to sour.

It was pure sweet(ish) wort at 1.031 with only the lacto pitched - no yeast. It has been at varying temps in the garage for the last year from the 80's last summer down to the low 50's in winter. Now it is no longer sweet at all, dry and thin with an estimated acidity of around 3% by taste.

[Sidney Porter]

add it the adjust with a combination of acid blend ((lactic, citric, acidic?) in the wine section) and lactic acid. I have found the "fake berlierner with just lactic tast one dimensional but the lactic blend adds a layer of complexity.... not my idea some one on the green board (maybe here)for comp I recommend cat 23 premixing with woodruff. I have not figured out if the razz should go in fruit or 23. I also recommend a comp that you know will refridge the entries or a short durration because they will continue to ferment

[Jimmy James]

It was pure sweet(ish) wort at 1.031 with only the lacto pitched - no yeast. It has been at varying temps in the garage for the last year from the 80's last summer down to the low 50's in winter. Now it is no longer sweet at all, dry and thin with an estimated acidity of around 3% by taste.

Seems weird that just using lacto alone you'd not get even the full sourness of a BW, which should be pretty sour eh? I wonder how pure the culture you used was. Some lacto will undergo aerobic respiration and different strains will yield all sorts of different fermentation products. You can get acetic acid, ethanol and other stuff. I suspect these things are hit and miss a bit. I doubt any of the purveyors of these bugs have any method in place to discriminate a pure culture from one that has been contaminated with a "relative" that has different fermentation characteristics.

[davelew]

I've had a similar experience, where I was worried about having too mnuch sourness and ended up with less than I expected. I made three gallons of berliner weisse last fall, using the no-boil, handful of grain, hold temps at 85 for two weeks method. I let that age for about six months, and then I was planning to mix it with three gallons of kolsch I had brewed in order to get the right amount of sourness.When the time came for bottling, I ended up not diluting the lacto batch at all, just bottling it straight. It has a refreshing lemonade-like sourness that is going to be great on a hot summer day. Now, my biggest regret is the three gallons I wasted with the kolsch yeast, I should have skipped the mixer and made six gallons of berliner weisse.

Last year at the NHBC the session on Berliner Weisse mentioned 3 different ways of making them. One was to sour a small batch of beer with lactobacillus and use it to sour a big batch. The idea being that a gallon would get really sour over time and could "dilute" that sourness with a finished, bigger batch of unsoured beer to hit the 3-4% acidity target.So I tried that, and I have had a gallon of lacto wort hanging out in a cabinet for almost a year now. I opened it up to sample the other day thinking I would use it for this summer's batch of Berlinner. Problem is that it is just barely sour enough for finished a Berlinner and not nearly sour enough to provide all the tartness for 10 (or even 5) gallons. It's completely dry, too, so I know it is out of sugar and won't be getting any more sour.Thinking about it, it makes total sense and, I think, exposes a flaw in the whole method of souring a beer. The lacto are going to eat the same stuff yeast would eat, so it only makes sense that a 1.031 wort doesn't have a lot of food to begin with and cannot make a super-sour batch.Has anybody had success with this method? If so, what did you do? I can imagine it might work if you innoculated a 1.90 wort, but a 1.031 is never going to cut it.Looks like it will be another year of acid blend and prepared lactic acid Berlinner Weisse.

[siouxbrewer]

This topic is interesting. The berliner weiss I brewed with last year's VSS release was underwhelmingly sour but a very pleasant wheat beer. I recently purchased a smacker of wyeast lacto and a smacker of 3333 ($16 ouch!) to try my luck at a more sour version. I plan to build up the lacto culture to about a gallon size and pitch onto fresh wort 10g. After a day or two I'd pitch the starter of 3333 and let it run through primary. I figured this could give the lacto a headstart and make the finished beer more sourer. Any thoughts to this practice?

[BrewerGeorge]

It was the pure Wyeast culture and was pretty damn expensive.The gallon does have a bit of mild, interesting funkiness, so I'll add it to the next batch (today's) in the kettle, and then make up the sourness with acids.

[davelew]

I plan to build up the lacto culture to about a gallon size and pitch onto fresh wort 10g. After a day or two I'd pitch the starter of 3333 and let it run through primary. I figured this could give the lacto a headstart and make the finished beer more sourer. Any thoughts to this practice?

The temperature is important with lacto cultures, probably as important as the time. My last Berliner Weisse had two weeks at 85F, and it got nice and sour (though not as sour as I expected; it didn't require mixing). My guess is that your day with just lacto is probably about right, but I would try to make sure it was a day witht he wort+lacto in th 80s, before cooling to the 60s and adding the yeast.

[dondewey]

Half wheat half 2-row to 10 brix gravity, mash hop (any low alpha continental variety) half oz per 5 gallons, single decoction, sparge into fermenter, slow cool, pitch the wyeast culture at 69F. I've done this multiple times and the results are consistent and good.

[Slainte]

I pitch the lacto culture and ale yeast at the same time in my berliner weisses, and have gotten great results. Usually three months at 65 F is plenty for significant sourness.