16 replies to this topic

[earthtone]

just doing a cream ale, the popcorn one was a real hit so I am doing another for a party coming up with flaked instead of popped. I want a bit more hop presence in this one than the last so I am going 2 oz FWH. I boil on my kitchen stove and I find the humidity gets a bit crazy so I've been doing 45 min. boils when I can. Think it'll effect the FWH much to drop from a 60 to a 45 with this one?recipe:6 lbs pils10 oz carapils2 lbs flaked corn2 oz pearle FWHUS05

[earthtone]

sub question I suppose, is there a problem with DMS using pils as my base and only boiling for 45?

[MtnBrewer]

Boil time won't affect bitterness that much for a FWH addition. Maybe 10% or so. However you should definitely boil for 90 minutes when using pilsner malt.

[earthtone]

alrighty, thanks mtn!

[Rick]

ET, At temps above 140F, SMM is coverted to DMS. DMS is then removed from the wort during the evaporation of water making a rolling boil key for the removal of DMS. The half life of DMS in the boil is 40 minutes. Sidenote, SMM does not cause any off flavors directly, so any left in the wort will not be detected. Also SMM is present in under modified malts at higher levels than in highly modified malts (like the ones we have today).In your 45 minute boil, half of the potential DMS will be eliminated. So if you want to do the shorter boil, you will need to cool your wort as quickly as possible to below 140F to prevent any additional DMS production. If you have the ability to cool to below 140F in a matter of minutes, I think that you might be safe. Also if you have an evap rate of 8% during that time will also help reduce DMS.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

ET, At temps above 140F, SMM is coverted to DMS. DMS is then removed from the wort during the evaporation of water making a rolling boil key for the removal of DMS. The half life of DMS in the boil is 40 minutes. Sidenote, SMM does not cause any off flavors directly, so any left in the wort will not be detected. Also SMM is present in under modified malts at higher levels than in highly modified malts (like the ones we have today).In your 45 minute boil, half of the potential DMS will be eliminated. So if you want to do the shorter boil, you will need to cool your wort as quickly as possible to below 140F to prevent any additional DMS production. If you have the ability to cool to below 140F in a matter of minutes, I think that you might be safe. Also if you have an evap rate of 8% during that time will also help reduce DMS.

I recently made a beer with a good amount of pilsner. I boil hard for 60 mins. Should I expect to taste DMS? I don't know how fast I get below 140F (I use an IC). I've sampled about 2L of this beer at a young stage and other than a little yeastiness it tastes great to me.

[Rick]

@Zym I have done the same with my Helles that is 91% Pils. I had a nice strong boil, 15% evap rate, chilled down to 140F within 10-15 min. I couldn't detect any more DMS than a commercial Pilsner or Helles has. I wouldn't be worried about it.

[djinkc]

I recently made a beer with a good amount of pilsner. I boil hard for 60 mins. Should I expect to taste DMS? I don't know how fast I get below 140F (I use an IC). I've sampled about 2L of this beer at a young stage and other than a little yeastiness it tastes great to me.

DMS is a potential problem. The 90 min boil is a preventative measure that is easily done on some systems. IMO not everyone has a low threshold for it, you may have it and never know - then it's someone else's problem. I judged next to a guy once that dinged almost every beer for it - I asked what's up with this. He said he had a low threshold. Whatever....... I thought that sucked.I used to boil for 60 with almost all Pils because it hadn't sunk in yet - never had a problem that I could detect. But I still boil 90 now anyway. I think with some gentle stirring while the IC is in for the first 5 minutes should drop you well below 140df even with warm ground water. My two cents.......

[BarelyBrews]

I used to boil for 60 with almost all Pils because it hadn't sunk in yet - never had a problem that I could detect. But I still boil 90 now anyway. I think with some gentle stirring while the IC is in for the first 5 minutes should drop you well below 140df even with warm ground water. My two cents.......

I have only made one bohemian pilsner to date.It turned out great.I didn't know this either about the 90 minute boil, i bet it takes me around 10-15 minutes of boil adjustments before i toss the 60 min hop addition in anyways.Maybe i got lucky there.And i find the IC drops my temp quickly the first 5 minutes also.

[Big Nake]

On beers where I use pilsner malt, I boil hard for 60 minutes and then I'll time my chill to see how long it takes me to get from boiling to 140°. In the winter, I can get there in 1 minute, 45 seconds (I stir constantly) and in the summer it's closer to 2 minutes, 30 seconds. I read somewhere that 3 minutes is the magic number so that 10-15 minutes sounds a little long to me. I should also mention that I have made a number of gold lagers this spring and summer and just started using domestic pale malt in them. They have all come out great and DMS is erased from the picture. Cheers.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

DMS is a potential problem. The 90 min boil is a preventative measure that is easily done on some systems. IMO not everyone has a low threshold for it, you may have it and never know - then it's someone else's problem. I judged next to a guy once that dinged almost every beer for it - I asked what's up with this. He said he had a low threshold. Whatever....... I thought that sucked.I used to boil for 60 with almost all Pils because it hadn't sunk in yet - never had a problem that I could detect. But I still boil 90 now anyway. I think with some gentle stirring while the IC is in for the first 5 minutes should drop you well below 140df even with warm ground water. My two cents.......

I may have some ability to taste it simply because I can almost always tell when a beer has a good amount of pilsner in it. It's a very distinctive taste to me. Beers made with mostly base malt are close but not quite the same. If that judge KNOWS he has a low threshold shouldn't he take that into account and only ding the beers where the taste is more prevalent to him? Or maybe he has a low threshold but no resolution such that any amount of DMS is simply overwhelming?

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

On beers where I use pilsner malt, I boil hard for 60 minutes and then I'll time my chill to see how long it takes me to get from boiling to 140°. In the winter, I can get there in 1 minute, 45 seconds (I stir constantly) and in the summer it's closer to 2 minutes, 30 seconds. I read somewhere that 3 minutes is the magic number so that 10-15 minutes sounds a little long to me. I should also mention that I have made a number of gold lagers this spring and summer and just started using domestic pale malt in them. They have all come out great and DMS is erased from the picture. Cheers.

I try not to touch the wort until it is under 85F (I may shift the chiller a couple of times but that's about it). Aren't you worried about introducing oxygen?

[djinkc]

I try not to touch the wort until it is under 85F (I may shift the chiller a couple of times but that's about it). Aren't you worried about introducing oxygen?

Gentle stirring shouldn't be a problem. I use an gearmotor stirrer as soon as the IC water is turned on.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Gentle stirring shouldn't be a problem. I use an gearmotor stirrer as soon as the IC water is turned on.

ah - maybe I'll start doing this to save a little bit of H2O.

[earthtone]

great info guys, ended up boiling hard for 60 and then chilling as fast as I could! Looks like it'll be a tasty one, all this hot weather made the other cream ale disappear so it's time for round two!I guess the other question is how detectable is DMS when you're using corn in the grist anyway? My popcorn cream has retained a faint taste of air popped popcorn, not sure how flaked corn affects the final product...

[Genesee Ted]

Perhaps I hav ea a high threshold of detection, or I am doing something right, or not understanding the whole DMS pils malt thing, but I use pils a lot (almost always) and have never had anyone comment on DMS, nor have I tasted it. So you either need a 90 min boil or to chill the wort to less than 140 in 3 minutes?

[denny]

Perhaps I hav ea a high threshold of detection, or I am doing something right, or not understanding the whole DMS pils malt thing, but I use pils a lot (almost always) and have never had anyone comment on DMS, nor have I tasted it. So you either need a 90 min boil or to chill the wort to less than 140 in 3 minutes?

There is no guarantee of DMS if you boil pils malt less than 90 min. or if it takes longer than 3 min. to chill below 140. IMO, those are recommended steps to take if you have a problem with DMS. For me, it's usually no problem to only boil pils malt for 60-70 min.