24 replies to this topic

[jayb151]

Hey all,I have a quick question. I was considering doing a lambic soon and I was wondering about the yeast. If I used the Roeselare Ale Blend from Wyeast, would I be able to bottle condition? I do not keg right now and I was just wondering if I would have to set aside a fermenter for this. Thanks for any help!JayB

[strangebrewer]

First off the Roeselare blend will give you a Flanders style beer not a lambic. That said I love a good flanders. I have 1 on tap and another one ready to be bottled right now.After brewing and pitching I leave these beers sit for 6 months before doing anything with them. Considering the critters in there it would probably bottle carb all on it's own but for the time invested and the cost of a packet of US05 I pitch fresh yeast before bottling.

[jayb151]

Well, I guess I'm not sure exactly what the difference is. I mean, they're both sour ales right? There would just be subtle differences between the kind of sourness?I guess what I would love to make would be something similar to Rodenbach; I love their Grand Cru. So I guess I'm going for more of a flanders red. What kind of yeast/bacteria would be used to produce a beer like this. Also, to clearify, when I ask if I can bottle condition this, I mean can I put it in bottles after a few months of bulk aging and not worry about bottle bombs?

[strangebrewer]

Sounds like a flanders is what you are after. The big difference between a flanders style and a lambic is the sourness in a flanders is mostly driven by lactobacillus where as the sourness in a lambic is from pediococcus. Despite their names Pedio throws more lactic acid than lactobacillus does so it will make a more sour beer than lacto. Lacto also has a lower ABV tolerance and a major aversion to hops.If you compared 2 classic examples of the style say a Cantillion Iris and a Rodenbach Grand Cru they are VERY different with the Cantillion being much more sour.As for the bottle conditioning. I bottle them in caged and corked belgian bombers. I also age my Flanders beers for 6 months minimum before bottling. The bulk of the fermentation is done but there easily could be some larger sugar chains being slowly eaten away at in the bottle over the next couple years contributing more carbonation. Thus far I've never had any bombs. Again with these beers I don't mind spending a little extra because of the 6-12 months it takes to make one and then the 2-5 years I keep them around for.

[jayb151]

Right!So if I let it sit for about 6 months, there really wouldn't be that much of a risk for bombs. Also, I would want some Lactobacillus. Is that really the only souring agent expected in a flanders or would I also want to add some brett? Thanks for the info!

[strangebrewer]

Right!So if I let it sit for about 6 months, there really wouldn't be that much of a risk for bombs. Also, I would want some Lactobacillus. Is that really the only souring agent expected in a flanders or would I also want to add some brett? Thanks for the info!

I haven't even had a gusher more or less a bottle bomb from the ones I bulk aged 6 months before bottling so from my experience I'd say it's safe. Obviously YMMV.Traditionally the primary souring bug in a Flanders is lactobacillus. Not to say more modern breweries don't use some pedio in them. If they wanted a flanders with more sourness or more hop presence then pedio would probably be the best way to do this. The Roeselare pack from WYeast is a blend that contains saccharomyces, brettanomyces, and lactobacillus. It's one stop shopping.

[jayb151]

AH! So I was right by going with the Roeselare blend! Seriously though, thanks for the help with understanding!

[strangebrewer]

AH! So I was right by going with the Roeselare blend! Seriously though, thanks for the help with understanding!

You got it Happy to help. I love me some bugs.

[shaggaroo]

Sounds like a flanders is what you are after. The big difference between a flanders style and a lambic is the sourness in a flanders is mostly driven by lactobacillus where as the sourness in a lambic is from pediococcus.

Isn't the sourness in a Flanders Red / Oud Bruin driven by acetobacter?

[siouxbrewer]

Isn't the sourness in a Flanders Red / Oud Bruin driven by acetobacter?

It shouldn't be. While there may be some acetobacter in spontaneously fermented beers, it is typically considered a spoilage agent and only thrives in the presence of oxygen, which means you have vinegar, not beer. I have heard of reserving a small amount of acetic beer and back blending to make things more sour. But it is not the sour "backbone" so to speak. The sourness in Flanders and Lambics comes from lactobacillus and pediococci respectively, as was previously mentioned.

[shaggaroo]

OK I guess I was mistaken, but when I taste Rodenbach, Vichtenaar, La Folie, all of those beers have a distinct acetic acid flavor to them...

[Slainte]

In case you guys are curious, I emailed Wyeast a while back asking what was in the Roeselare blend. This is what I was told:Pediococcus sp.Lactobacillus sp.Brettanomyces bruxellensisBrettanomyces lambicusSaccharomyces cerevisiaeAnd a wild yeast isolated from Sherry

OK I guess I was mistaken, but when I taste Rodenbach, Vichtenaar, La Folie, all of those beers have a distinct acetic acid flavor to them...

Brettanomyces will give acetic acid with the introduction of oxygen. And you are absolutely correct about acetic acid in Flander Reds. It shouldn't be overwhelming, but some acetic acid is part of the style.

[Slainte]

Brettanomyces will give acetic acid with the introduction of oxygen. And you are absolutely correct about acetic acid in Flander Reds. It shouldn't be overwhelming, but some acetic acid is part of the style.

Too late to edit, but to add to it the majority of the sourness in a Flanders Red should be Lactic acid. I wouldn't recommend adding acetobactor to a homebrew, but rather get that slight acetic quality from the Brettanomyces.

[siouxbrewer]

Too late to edit, but to add to it the majority of the sourness in a Flanders Red should be Lactic acid. I wouldn't recommend adding acetobactor to a homebrew, but rather get that slight acetic quality from the Brettanomyces.

This, brett will throw some acetic, but nothing overwhelming.

[siouxbrewer]

In case you guys are curious, I emailed Wyeast a while back asking what was in the Roeselare blend. This is what I was told:Pediococcus sp.Lactobacillus sp.Brettanomyces bruxellensisBrettanomyces lambicusSaccharomyces cerevisiaeAnd a wild yeast isolated from Sherry

This looks just like their lambic blend. I was pretty sure the flanders didn't have the sherry yeast, not sure about the pedio but I think it's just the lacto in the roeselare.

[Slainte]

This looks just like their lambic blend. I was pretty sure the flanders didn't have the sherry yeast, not sure about the pedio but I think it's just the lacto in the roeselare.

Looking at their description on the website it appears you're correct. Maybe the microbiologist that answered my email confused the two...

[jayb151]

Wow, would you guys pitch only the roeselare, or would you pitch a normal, unsour yeast too? probably depends on how sour you want it, right?

[strangebrewer]

Wow, would you guys pitch only the roeselare, or would you pitch a normal, unsour yeast too? probably depends on how sour you want it, right?

Personally I just pitch the Roeselare blend though I know others pitch a neutral yeast first and the blend in secondary. I have a feeling that the sacch. strain in the belnd is 1056 or something neutral enough as the ferment starts out like a normal ferment but then gets funky.A number of factors contribute to sourness other than the bugs. The #1 from my experience is oxygen. The more O2 available post primary the more sour. This is why I ferment my sours in plastic buckets. Traditionally sours are aged in barrels to get this effect. Plastic buckets are MUCH more O2 permeable than a barrel but if you don't have a barrel it's the easiest second option. Another option is jamming an oak dowel through a stopper so that some of the dowel is submerged and a small amount sticking out the top of the stopper. I have not tried this but I know others have with success.

[HVB]

Another option is jamming an oak dowel through a stopper so that some of the dowel is submerged and a small amount sticking out the top of the stopper. I have not tried this but I know others have with success.

I will be trying this on the Flanders Red I plan to brew on Sunday. I did not do this with the Flanders Brown I did last year and I think it would have benefited with some more O2. My plan on pitching is to pitch s-05 and let it get down to about 1.020 and then throw the bugs in and wait … and wait … and wait!

[jayb151]

Plastic buckets are MUCH more O2 permeable than a barrel but if you don't have a barrel it's the easiest second option. Another option is jamming an oak dowel through a stopper so that some of the dowel is submerged and a small amount sticking out the top of the stopper.

Yea, I've heard of this. So, a pretty good option would be to ferment in a bucket and maybe throw some cubes in with it? After maybe a month in the bucket, I could transfer into a glass container too, right?