84 replies to this topic

[Big Nake]

Guys: I bounced this topic around on Northern Brewer and I'm putting up here now too. I have been playing with small water & boil additions of things like gypsum, CaCl2 and Magnesium Sulfate. My beers are better than ever and I think these slight adjustments have really helped me. My amber-colored beers (maybe SRM 7 to 12 or so) are also coming out incredibly clear. But for some reason, my lighter colored beers are still suffering from some amount of chill haze. I do all of the other things to help prevent haze... vigourous boil, whirfloc, a quick chill, allow to settle, rack from brewpot to primary, use a gel solution in secondary, etc. Sometimes the first half of a keg will be hazy and the rest will be clearer. This is definitely chill haze because if the beer warms up, it clears. So I'm thinking that it's a mash pH issue. These additions I make (thanks to EZ_Water spreadsheet) guides me to get my residual alkalinity and pH set for a particular range of SRMs. When I make an SRM 3 or 4 beer, the sheet suggests that the pH will be suitable for that range. I do not have a pH meter but I'm thinking of getting one and I have also never used any type of acid in my mash so I'm looking for an easy way to tell if this is my issue. The next step is filtering my beer a la ChadM! Cheers.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Guys: I bounced this topic around on Northern Brewer and I'm putting up here now too. I have been playing with small water & boil additions of things like gypsum, CaCl2 and Magnesium Sulfate. My beers are better than ever and I think these slight adjustments have really helped me. My amber-colored beers (maybe SRM 7 to 12 or so) are also coming out incredibly clear. But for some reason, my lighter colored beers are still suffering from some amount of chill haze. I do all of the other things to help prevent haze... vigourous boil, whirfloc, a quick chill, allow to settle, rack from brewpot to primary, use a gel solution in secondary, etc. Sometimes the first half of a keg will be hazy and the rest will be clearer. This is definitely chill haze because if the beer warms up, it clears. So I'm thinking that it's a mash pH issue. These additions I make (thanks to EZ_Water spreadsheet) guides me to get my residual alkalinity and pH set for a particular range of SRMs. When I make an SRM 3 or 4 beer, the sheet suggests that the pH will be suitable for that range. I do not have a pH meter but I'm thinking of getting one and I have also never used any type of acid in my mash so I'm looking for an easy way to tell if this is my issue. The next step is filtering my beer a la ChadM! Cheers.

My beers also suffer from some amount of haze and yes, lighter beers seem slightly worse. I'm not sure if this is due to the fact that I can see the haze more or if it's something with the pH.

[BrewerGeorge]

You're adding salts to get the right pH range? Where does your water naturally fall in terms of SRM?Does the chill haze respond to traditional finings?Just a random thought, but it could come and go with temp and not be chill haze. Solubility of ions is also affected by temperature change, not just chill haze proteins. If you have a lot of dissolved salts in the water, they might be falling out of solution as temperature goes down. Quite a long shot, though.

[Slainte]

I do not have a pH meter but I'm thinking of getting one and I have also never used any type of acid in my mash so I'm looking for an easy way to tell if this is my issue.

I would get one at least to verify that your calculations are putting you in the correct range. I used to have chill haze issues until I started adjusting it. You especially want to check your mash and boil pH.Also, at what temperature are you adding your gelatin? In order for it to remove chill haze, get the beer colder than your serving temperature before you add it.

[Big Nake]

Thanks guys. George: My water is suitable for making beers in the 12 to 17 SRM range. For these lighter beers, I use 66% distilled water in the mash and 33% distilled water in the sparges and I let EZ_Water tell me when I have properly adjusted it for a lighter beer. I have absolutely no idea what the pH of my mash truly is. EZ_Water looks at the composition of the water plus the additions and says "pH will be suitable for this color: 3 to 8 SRM"... that sort of thing.Slainte: I have heard that gel should be added after the beer is cold and I am going to try that. I ordinarily add it when I move the beer to secondary when the beer is room temp. It definitely drops things to the bottom of the secondary, but it must not get to the stuff leading to the haze (because it hasn't formed yet??) so I will attempt that soon. Also, I have tried to use the pH strips to check the pH of my mash but I have no confidence in them at all... they really don't seem to work.I will also mention that amber-colored beers like MLPA, Aviator's English Ale, etc. (beers in the 7-12 SRM range) pour clear after the first yeasty pint. Those darker beers are crystal clear for about 90% of the keg... the lighter beers are more like 25-35% of the keg. Any other thoughts? Cheers guys.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Slainte: I have heard that gel should be added after the beer is cold and I am going to try that. I ordinarily add it when I move the beer to secondary when the beer is room temp. It definitely drops things to the bottom of the secondary, but it must not get to the stuff leading to the haze (because it hasn't formed yet??) so I will attempt that soon. Also, I have tried to use the pH strips to check the pH of my mash but I have no confidence in them at all... they really don't seem to work.

I have a beer on tap right now where I didn't chill it before racking onto the gel and it has chill haze. I think from now on I'll be chilling prior to racking. This does leave me in a tricky situation regarding dry hopping though since it has been recommended to dry hop warmer than fridge temps.

[Big Nake]

At the moment, I rack 55-60° beer from primary to secondary on top of a gel solution. Later, I rack that same (much clearer now) 55-60° beer to a keg, then chill it, then carb it. Maybe I'll send it to a keg, chill it, gel it and then carb it to see if that makes a difference. This would really only be necessary on lighter beers, IMO because the darker beers are already clear.But... that difference in clarity between light & dark beers still leads me to believe that I'm missing something pH-related.

[Big Nake]

Oh hey... one more thought. This seems to be a bit of a dark area that maybe needs a flashlight shined on it. On the thread I linked to in my first post, someone suggested checking the pH of the sparges. On the EZ_Water sheet, there are check boxes for "ADJUST FOR SPARGE WATER?" and then it shows "SPARGE ADDITIONS (add to boil)". So is it possible that the mash pH could be okay but the sparge water & grains mixed together could have a bad pH?Also, what's the deal with pH meters. I see them on eBay and Amazon for $15 to maybe $40 and they appear to need some special storage solution, etc. Any tips if I decide to go down that road? Cheers.

[davelew]

Oh hey... one more thought. This seems to be a bit of a dark area that maybe needs a flashlight shined on it. On the thread I linked to in my first post, someone suggested checking the pH of the sparges. On the EZ_Water sheet, there are check boxes for "ADJUST FOR SPARGE WATER?" and then it shows "SPARGE ADDITIONS (add to boil)". So is it possible that the mash pH could be okay but the sparge water & grains mixed together could have a bad pH?Also, what's the deal with pH meters. I see them on eBay and Amazon for $15 to maybe $40 and they appear to need some special storage solution, etc. Any tips if I decide to go down that road? Cheers.

I've heard of a lot of problem with cheap pH meters. The sub-$200 don't seem to work very well, so I use ColorPhast pH strips instead. They are a little more expensive than the economy strips, but they are much easier to use and I actually trust the results.As for sparge additions, you need to keep an eye on the pH in two places: the mash tun, and the boiling kettle. If you get your mash tun about right, but the boil kettle is off, you could still have a problem.

[BlKtRe]

Sounds to me like you already answered your own questions. You dont have a clue what your mash PH is during mash or sparge and you gel your beer at room temp before chill haze causing proteins are formed. By then your gel is sitting at the bottom of your secondary. If it was me, Id buy some cheap PH paper before a PH meter. The meter will eventually (sooner than later) be sitting at the bottom of your brew tool box. Use the paper after mashing in, then use it at the beginning, middle, and end of your sparge. Luckily for me I dont have to treat my sparge water as my mash stays within range during the entire sparge. Seems like a a few easy things to give a try if you ask me.

[BrewerGeorge]

+1 on the ColorpHast strips. They seem really expensive, but one box will last most of us years of brewing. They work much, much better than the cheap paper ones.If you fly sparge, you should watch spage water pH, but if you batch it shouldn't be necessary. However, I suspect that any problems here would show up as astringency instead of haze.If you're diluting for light beers, how is your Calcium level ending up? Maybe you're not left with enough.

[Big Nake]

Andy: You're absolutely right... I have no idea what the pH is. I am relying on the EZ_Water sheet to tell me what it is. I have seen a number of brewers who say that the spreadsheets oversimplify the process, but I haven't had anyone tell me not to trust them. But the bottom line is that I don't know the pH. I have tried the cheap strips and I can't tell WTF is going on with them. I will pick up some ColorPhast strips before a meter and see how that comes out. I do batch sparge so maybe I can get around some of the readings.George: I dilute with distilled water for lighter-colored beers. Then I add back calcium chloride to boost the calcium back up to somewhere between 75 and 100ppm. But my chloride-to-sulfate ratio is good for "very malty" beers so I usually add a small amount of epsom salt (magnesium sulfate) or gypsum, depending on style. I do all of this in the EZ_Water spreadsheet and make sure that my numbers are reasonable. The sheet suggests mash & boil additions. Again, my beers are coming out very, very good so the haze is just a cosmetic issue. But here is another question... say I get the ColorPhast strips and I find that my pH is high (which is my assumption)... what do I do to lower it (add acid?) and how do I know how much to add to lower it to the proper pH?Thanks again guys!

[BlKtRe]

Just a shot in the dark, have you ever tried PH 5.2? I know it only works with certain water types. I use it in my mash for all beers except dark beers. I fly sparge and at the end of the sparge, the 5.2 still keeps my mash PH in check. I feel im lucky that this simple treatment works for me. Just a thought.

[Big Nake]

Hmm. Interesting that you mention this. I do have some and I have used it in the past. I remember my wife saying something after drinking the first beer I ever made with it... This beer tastes soapy! I never tasted anything weird with it, but maybe I should try it again on a pale beer. But let me ask you this... should I screw the salt additions that I'm making to the mash and sparge if I use the 5.2 stabilizer? If I do add the salt additions, how will I know the end result since no one seems to know what's in 5.2 anyway?

[BlKtRe]

Hmm. Interesting that you mention this. I do have some and I have used it in the past. I remember my wife saying something after drinking the first beer I ever made with it... This beer tastes soapy! I never tasted anything weird with it, but maybe I should try it again on a pale beer. But let me ask you this... should I screw the salt additions that I'm making to the mash and sparge if I use the 5.2 stabilizer? If I do add the salt additions, how will I know the end result since no one seems to know what's in 5.2 anyway?

If you use the 5.2, dont use any other treatments. Wait to use it when you get your Color strips. Once doughed in, test your PH. If its out of whack then you know it didn't work and then add your salts. Are you matching water profiles?

[Big Nake]

If you use the 5.2, dont use any other treatments. Wait to use it when you get your Color strips. Once doughed in, test your PH. If its out of whack then you know it didn't work and then add your salts. Are you matching water profiles?

No, I'm not matching water profiles. I'm just adjusting my water to work better with lighter-colored beers. I really don't have to do much to the water if I'm making anything with some color... Reds, Ambers, Festbiers, English Ales, Pale Ales, Dark Lagers, etc. I just boost the calcium a little and those beers come out great. They are very tasty and the clarity & head stability are really nice. It's just these pesky lighter-colored beers.

[Big Nake]

I picked up a box of 100 ColorPhast strips today which seems like a decent first step in this process. I got the "narrow range... 4.0 to 7.0" version. Here's the question... if the pH is high or low, what's the best way to adjust it? I have never used acids for brewing so I do not have any in the house. Also, how would I know how much to add?

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I picked up a box of 100 ColorPhast strips today which seems like a decent first step in this process. I got the "narrow range... 4.0 to 7.0" version. Here's the question... if the pH is high or low, what's the best way to adjust it? I have never used acids for brewing so I do not have any in the house. Also, how would I know how much to add?

just curious - how much did that cost?

[earthtone]

ken, I would be interested to see what the result is of simply adding the gel solution to the lighter beer after cooling rather than at room temp. Not sure if this would help but the first 2-7 SRM beer I made after starting to use gelatin in the keg came out crystal clear for 90% of the keg and I added the gelatin to a chilled keg. I have fewer issues with haze with my darker beers as well but the gelatin seemed to solve those issues for me even in the light ones.Hope you resolve the issue, seems like your final frontier!

[Humperdink]

I picked up a box of 100 ColorPhast strips today which seems like a decent first step in this process. I got the "narrow range... 4.0 to 7.0" version. Here's the question... if the pH is high or low, what's the best way to adjust it? I have never used acids for brewing so I do not have any in the house. Also, how would I know how much to add?

Add calcium or carbonates to adjust the pH. I think you can do this on Palmers spreadsheet, or at least see how much X grams of this or that adjusts the projected pH.