25 replies to this topic

[BlKtRe]

Finally after years and years of barrel brewing, my club the Lawrence Brewers Guild is going to start a dedicated Sour Barrel. Our host barrel is a 23yr old Buffalo Trace Pappy Van Winkle top shelf bourbon barrel. This barrel has already produced some outstanding beers for us. The last batch picked up a friendly little fella that added a nice sourness. So its gonna be dedicated to Wild beers from now on. So here is the plan and any comments are welcome.Alot of us already have Lambics and Flanders. So the idea here is to have a clear, straw colored Wild beer for the first time out. Currently we have a pitch of WY1388 on hand. Were gonna under pitch this strain a tiny bit. The recipe is a 60g batch that contains Pilsner Malt, Wheat Malt, and Acidulated Malt. The percentages from these malts should add to the beer what they are supposed too. We are also going to mash high in the 154-55* range. The idea here is that the Sac. strain will under attenuate in our primary fermenter. We are also going to keep the total IBU's no more than 25 using the Slovenian Celia hop.Overview of the plan. Mash high, around 154-55* to create the complex sugars the Sac. yeast cannot eat in the 55/14g primaries. Rack to the barrel and inoculate with Brett B. The barrel will stay at ambient temp. We will hopefully in 6 mths get a clear, pale colored wild beer that picked up sourness from our live in resident of the barrel, the sweaty barnyard esters from the Brett, and esters from the Sac. Future batches we will add other critters to the cocktail. So potentially this barrel can produce a few different styles of Wild beer for the next how ever many years.Comments and Questions are welcome....

[Jimmy James]

I am guessing you don't expect much sour character from the barrel yet and that's why the acidulated malt? Or is there some other reason? I guess you could also pull some beer after a short time in the barrel and taste it, then repeat later to see how the sourness and funk develops. I would just want to make sure I could gauge the sourness from the bugs vs the sourness from the malt somehow. Overall it sounds like a great idea and I am definitely green with envy! I like the idea of a straw colored beer a lot as I personally prefer the lighter colored sour ales.

[EWW]

Finally after years and years of barrel brewing, my club the Lawrence Brewers Guild is going to start a dedicated Sour Barrel. Our host barrel is a 23yr old Buffalo Trace Pappy Van Winkle top shelf bourbon barrel. This barrel has already produced some outstanding beers for us. The last batch picked up a friendly little fella that added a nice sourness. So its gonna be dedicated to Wild beers from now on. So here is the plan and any comments are welcome.Alot of us already have Lambics and Flanders. So the idea here is to have a clear, straw colored Wild beer for the first time out. Currently we have a pitch of WY1388 on hand. Were gonna under pitch this strain a tiny bit. The recipe is a 60g batch that contains Pilsner Malt, Wheat Malt, and Acidulated Malt. The percentages from these malts should add to the beer what they are supposed too. We are also going to mash high in the 154-55* range. The idea here is that the Sac. strain will under attenuate in our primary fermenter. We are also going to keep the total IBU's no more than 25 using the Slovenian Celia hop.Overview of the plan. Mash high, around 154-55* to create the complex sugars the Sac. yeast cannot eat in the 55/14g primaries. Rack to the barrel and inoculate with Brett B. The barrel will stay at ambient temp. We will hopefully in 6 mths get a clear, pale colored wild beer that picked up sourness from our live in resident of the barrel, the sweaty barnyard esters from the Brett, and esters from the Sac. Future batches we will add other critters to the cocktail. So potentially this barrel can produce a few different styles of Wild beer for the next how ever many years.Comments and Questions are welcome....

sounds like a great project! A friend of mine just built a full barrel rack in his basement to house his 6 sour barrels (he's using wine barrels). Each barrel initially got a different bug mix and he has plans to play around with blending in the years to come. From talking to him in great depth about this, my recomendadtion is that you keep plenty of the base beer for topping of the barrels as they take their angel's share. Small SS nails are your best friend for taking samples without introducing much O2. Basically you drill a very small hole in the head of the barrel (smaller then your small ss nail), take your sample, insert the nail, and seal with wax. If it were me I'd probably keep the IBUs below 15. IN my experience I tend to like light/golden sours that have a minimal hop profile. Have you thought about doing a multistep turbid mash instead of mashing in the 150s? A turbid mash is really simple and only adds a little more time to your brew process. When I've done turbid mashed sours I've gotten a better sour profile compared to those that I've just mashed higher on. If you go the single infussion mash I would also add some carapils to add additional complex sugars. The saach will ferment out more then you think if you just mash higher ... I guess it just depends how much funk you want in the finished beer.Anyway, good luck and please keep us posted on this.

[EWW]

I am guessing you don't expect much sour character from the barrel yet and that's why the acidulated malt? Or is there some other reason? I guess you could also pull some beer after a short time in the barrel and taste it, then repeat later to see how the sourness and funk develops. I would just want to make sure I could gauge the sourness from the bugs vs the sourness from the malt somehow.

the lactic from the acid malt and the Brett characters go really well together IMHO, and acid malt is the easiest way to get a good lactic acid profile. Do you know how much acid malt you plan on adding? Balance is key here.

[BlKtRe]

This is a 60g batch, so there will be plenty of top up. Were not new to barrel brewing, but we are new to dedicated sour barrel brewing. The recipe were looking at is..85% Pilsner Mlat10% Wheat Malt5% Acidulated MaltAdding Carapils was a consideration and still can be. We are brewing this Sun.We decided on 5% Acidulated and not a higher ratio of 8% because we want the single infusion mash to be firmed up and the resident critter currently living in our barrel is a friendly one. He is adding just the right amount of sourness proven by the last batch that came out of the barrel, which was not inoculated, it is a natural bug. So this is our balance you speak of.Lowering the total IBU's a tad might be good advice. I will mention this to the group. The SS nail idea is genius. I'm gonna ponder this with great fascination. We discussed a turbid mash and decided for simplicity on our first time out we would do a single infusion since this is a group brew. Were doing two 24g batches and a 12g batch. We have gotten this down to a 6-7hr brew day. More comments are welcome and thanks for the ones so far....

[BlKtRe]

I forgot to add that the OG going into the primary is going to be 1.060. It has been discussed to add primary sugar to gain another 10 points. Knowing Brett B can tolerate up to 10% ABV. What is a consideration is it is a unknown what the alcohol tolerance of the live in resident. Any comments on the projected ABV of this beer?

[EWW]

Sounds like you know what you're doing.RE: the nail...from a BBB thread:

This is what Vinnie Cilurzo sent me in regards to the nail question. Here is the info on the stainless steel nail in the barrel head acting as a poor man’s Mac Gyver sample port:We drill a hole using a 7/64 drill bit on the barrel head of each barrel.The hole can be drilled while the barrel is empty or even with beer in it.You just have to be ready with the nail if you are doing it with the barrel full. The hole is so small that there is no problem with losing too much beer at this point. I have two sizes of stainless steel nails that I purchase from McMaster Carr. 1–½” 4d smooth common nail – 316 stainless steel McMaster Carr # 97990A1022” 6d smooth common nail - 316 stainless steel McMaster Carr # 97990A104 I use the smaller nail, but, I keep the larger ones around just in case a hole gets boarded out to large, it hasn’t happened yet, but, I’m just playing it safe.I do use barrel wax sometimes (www.barrelbuilders.com) around the nail after I have pulled a sample. We have never had a nail blow out due to pressure; they are pretty snug in there. Barrel Builders only sells large buckets of wax so if you want some just send me your address and I’ll drop some in the mail to you as I have enough for 10 brewery lifetimes. You can pull a sample and actually have the flow stop coming out of the small hole in the head of the barrel because the barrel is not vented, but, there is no issue. It is such a small hole that you can’t harm the barrel. If anything, it makes it easier because you can control the flow by removing the bung and putting it back into place. I usually drill the hole about half way up on the barrel head. Recently we've started to drill the barrel out after the barrel has beer in it as opposed to before. Sometimes you don't get the small hole drilled out all the way. You won't know that this is the case until there is beer in the barrel and you see that you don't even have a small stream of beer coming out of the hole. I've also taken to the practice of having a backup nail in my pocket when I'm pulling samples just in case you drop the nail on the floor on accident. The hole at the bottom of the head of the barrel (six o’clock if you are looking at the head of the barrel straight on) for removing beer with fruit in it is a 15/16” hole, the tubing that you use to remove the liquid and fruit is also from McMaster Carr. A Belgian beer bottle cork like we cork with fits in the 15/16” hole. Here is the part number from McMaster for the tubing: 15/16” OD tubing, McMaster Carr # 5231K944 It takes a little practice but you can removing the cork quickly and push the 15/16” tubing in the cork hole. The tubing is than run down to some sort of strainer that you would need to fashion and from the strainer it is pumped to a tank.

[BlKtRe]

Thanks EWW for the nail procedure. Id totally forgotten about this.Also, i think we answered our own question about primary sugar. Don't use it and take away from the critters.We also have some CaraFoam which is basically Wyermanns branded Carapils. No more than 5% should do the trick.

[siouxbrewer]

Glad to hear a little reassurance as we step into the darkside. I'm a huge fan of sour beers and this barrel brew presents a unique opportunity to experiment with truly original recipes and concepts. We're looking at adding some carapils/carafoam at this point, about 5% for dextrins so the brett has something to gnaw on over the next few months. Like Andy said, this brew will be simple and straightforward. We look forward to future cereal mashes and adding even more critters to the mix.ETA The acidulated malt is more for creating an environment conducive for ester production by the brett. The pH will naturally drop and acidify the beer, but this gives a subtle nudge in the right direction so the yeasties can do their thang.

[DigitalTaper]

BlKtRe -The Burgundian Babble Belt has a thread that talks about the SS Nail in a barrel. Someone there got hole/nail sizes from Vinny C & Avery Brewing.https://www.babblebelt.com/newboard/thread.html?tid=1108752780&th=1272691473&pg=&tpg=1#1272734358EDIT: EWW beat me to the punch!

Edited by DigitalTaper, 28 May 2010 - 09:17 AM.

[MAZ]

For those about to sour, we salute you!!!(nothing more to add, other than wishing I lived near you)

[BlKtRe]

Started setting up at 8am drinking coffee, pitched 60g by 430 cleaned up. Final Recipe. 80% Pilsner Malt10% Wheat Malt5% Carapils5% Acidulated 1.060 OG20 total IBU'sHallertau TraditionSlovenia CeliaSac 1388Brett B Expecting super attenuation in the barrel. High hopes for this one following protocols already described.

[djinkc]

Pretty cool Andy. I need to get my butt in gear when the next signup comes around. What a trooper, broken ass and all........

[BlKtRe]

What a trooper, broken ass and all........

And Jason who just come off yet another surgery from getting hit by a IED in a Humvee in Iraq. Couple of no good for nothins'. Would like you to be on the next one. But its at least 6mths away! Stangbat stopped by tho....

[djinkc]

And Jason who just come off yet another surgery from getting hit by a IED in a Humvee in Iraq. Couple of no good for nothins'. Would like you to be on the next one. But its at least 6mths away! Stangbat stopped by tho....

I was in the plans to stop by, have a few and see the crew again - just didn't happen today. Damn, just met Jason a couple weeks ago - I had no idea what the surgery had been for. Great guy, and it was nice to meet Matt too.....

[klickcue]

I think that is great that the Guild has so friendship. The Guild pulls together to create a group brew and with bugs no less.You have Andy as the beer monster and Jason as the yeast monster with everyone else supplying the extras to get it done.What more could one ask for!

[BlKtRe]

Any clue of how big a pitch of Brett needed for our barrel? We would like to under pitch so the strain works a little hard.

[siouxbrewer]

Any clue of how big a pitch of Brett needed for our barrel? We would like to under pitch so the strain works a little hard.

My gut is telling me we won't need much. The longer the brett stays in reproductive mode, the more ester development we'll get. Maybe we go with one smacker and make a 1L starter? What say the BB?

[EWW]

My gut is telling me we won't need much. The longer the brett stays in reproductive mode, the more ester development we'll get. Maybe we go with one smacker and make a 1L starter? What say the BB?

Pretty much this.

[BlKtRe]

Should of listened to Lee the first 10x. Reassurance is always good tho.