28 replies to this topic

[BrewerGeorge]

Bad Starsan!If you've been following my bitching for the last few months, you know I've been unable to brew anything without it being infected. Three batches of 10 gal each went down the drain, and I got progressively more fanatical about sanitation after every failure. The last time I ran high-test chemical cleaning solutions through everything, took everything I could think of apart and cleaned and pressure-cooked it to sterilize. After all that, I was refilling my starsan spray bottle and I noticed something odd. Mold on the inside rubber seal of the starsan jug. I've always used iodophor on brewday mostly because my water is very, very hard so starsan turns white instantly, and also because iodophor is easier to pump, IMO. I mix starsan a gallon at a time with RO water and reserve it for a spray bottle. I store that gallon in an old Paul Mason 4 liter wine jug with a screw top. I've been doing this for years without a problem.It never crossed my mind that the sanitizer itself could be the problem. I mean, it has to be sanitary itself, right? I think that water vapor evaporated from the jar and condensed on the lid, so that the condensation was pure water which allowed the mold to grow feeding on the rubber seal. It's possible I also literally bred a strain of mold that was resistant to starsan, I suppose. Bottom line is that every time I used the starsan solution, I was introducing mold into my beer. The spores may have been dormant in the starsan, but once they got into beer they took off. When I think of all the trouble I took to clean things and make sure the wort was clean - only to pump it into a carboy rinsed in contaminated starsan. :facepalm:FWIW, the starsan pH tested fine, was perfectly clear, didn't smell like mold, etc, nothing whatsoever out of the ordinary. I just never noticed that the bottom of that cap looked odd. While replacing all the serving lines in my beer fridge, I found further evidence that mold was the problem inside some of the lines - which also got the starsan treatment, not to mention the moldy beer inside.Saturday's batch was iodophor-only to confirm. I tasted it today at lunch and it is not infected. I can brew again!Lesson learned: Maybe you can't always assume your sanitizer is itself sanitary, and change up your sanitizer storage bottles occasionally. (I replaced the spray bottle, too.)

[djinkc]

Interesting, I've been using the same 1/2 gal sprayer for StarSan for at least 2-3 years.

[SchwanzBrewer]

Very good PSA. I have not had infected beer yet, but Its been a year since I mixed my spray bottle with starsan. I do make a fresh solution in every carboy, so i shouldn't have a problem there.Cheers,Rich

[ScottS]

Doh! Glad you found it.

[denny]

Not that I doubt you, George, but if the StarSan is clear and the pH is OK, it seems kinda weird. OK, so maybe I doubt you a bit! I'd say you should contact 5 Star and ask if they've ever heard of this or if it's even possible.

[BrewerGeorge]

Not that I doubt you, George, but if the StarSan is clear and the pH is OK, it seems kinda weird. OK, so maybe I doubt you a bit! I'd say you should contact 5 Star and ask if they've ever heard of this or if it's even possible.

That's what I thought, too. The only thing I can think of is the condensation thing. Theoretically, the liquid on top of the lid isn't starsan, just pure water...

[zymot]

One of the more common threads I see are "How long can StarSan last?"Next comes a series of responses about what people do or how they store diluted StarSan and "I've never had a problem."I do not get it. StarSan is not that expensive. I am not going to risk a brew days worth of work or a batch of ingredients in the name of squeezing a bit more use from $0.50 of StarSan.I mix it up and use it. By the next day, it is equivalent to tap water. If I could measure how effective/strong it was, I would use it. If in doubt, I mix some more up. My time and frustration is not worth the potential aggravation and/or anxiety.zymot

[denny]

If I could measure how effective/strong it was, I would use it.

That's what pH papers are for

If in doubt, I mix some more up. My time and frustration is not worth the potential aggravation and/or anxiety.

Aye.

[Humperdink]

I know most people trust reusing starsan, but I can't do it. Every time I brew, I mix up a new batch of starsan or iodophor. It go by the adage if it's red its dead. i take comfot in that. With starsan, my pH papers don't go that low so I cant' test it without buying some. Just an excuse really but I prefer iodophor. I don't mind it stains my hoses.

[BrewerGeorge]

Just to clarify, I do not re-use starsan. I make a gallon with RO water that is only for my spray bottle. It may take me 3 months to go through that gallon before I have to make a new batch. Nothing ever gets re-used.

[zymot]

Just to clarify, I do not re-use starsan. I make a gallon with RO water that is only for my spray bottle. It may take me 3 months to go through that gallon before I have to make a new batch. Nothing ever gets re-used.

3 months?!?!?! Yikes. I get 12 hours - tops - out of a batch of StarSan.My motto. If it needs sanitizing, it needs fresh sanitizer.

[earthtone]

Not that I doubt you, George, but if the StarSan is clear and the pH is OK, it seems kinda weird. OK, so maybe I doubt you a bit! I'd say you should contact 5 Star and ask if they've ever heard of this or if it's even possible.

This makes me think of the old "You can't sanitize something that isn't clean" adage - if there was mold in evidence on the spray bottle then it would be impossible to truly sanitize it without cleaning all evidence of the mold off first. Otherwise you are only hitting the outer layer of bacteria in the colony and it would be supremely difficult to ever be sure you are contaminant free. The question in my mind isn't whether this was your source, but how the mold got so firmly established in such an unlikely spot.

[djinkc]

.......... It may take me 3 months to go through that gallon before I have to make a new batch. ...........

I guess in theory that should be OK. The concentrate I have is much older than that. About the most I will go is 3 days, after that I'll test it with a pH strip and over a week - I'll just make a new batch. And I have a pump sprayer so it gets splashed around quite a bit when I use it.Hope that takes care of your problem - dumping is no fun.

[BlKtRe]

Weird. Give it more time before coming to conclusions. But this is just plain weird.

[BrewerGeorge]

This makes me think of the old "You can't sanitize something that isn't clean" adage - if there was mold in evidence on the spray bottle then it would be impossible to truly sanitize it without cleaning all evidence of the mold off first. Otherwise you are only hitting the outer layer of bacteria in the colony and it would be supremely difficult to ever be sure you are contaminant free. The question in my mind isn't whether this was your source, but how the mold got so firmly established in such an unlikely spot.

No mold evident on the spray bottle. I just threw that away on general principle. The mold was on the lid of the gallon wine jug I keep working-strength starsan in before I fill up the spray bottle.

[jammer]

Glad you finally found it George. I remember how frustrated you were. Ive only had one infected batch and it really pissed me off.

[BarelyBrews]

Glad you found your problem george.I would say that anywhere Oxygen can go , mold can form.I once found it in my baster i use for gravity readings and the inside of my graduated cylinder i use for gravity readings.With soap and /Hot water rinse/starsan solution rinse i thought i was safe.Wrong.I had to break that stuff down.I use my Starsan solution for maybe two weeks,or until i don't like the color of it(before two weeks).

[beach]

I too am happy you found the source George.*furiously checks for mold*Beach

[Stout_fan]

Good sleuthing GS!I'm glad I store my cornies dry. Mold growing inside one of them has always been one of my fears.

[Spoon]

Whoa! I am going to pay more attention to my star-san then. I keep a bucket and use it to rinse and dunk while brewing. While I do change it on the regular I never really paid it much attention. Thanks for the heads up.