Edited by Blktre, 29 April 2009 - 07:38 AM.
My efficiency has risen 7% and I dont know why?
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, Apr 29 2009 07:36 AM
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#1
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Posted 29 April 2009 - 07:36 AM
Ive always been happy with 80-82%. Its been that way for years and I could brew blindfolded and still know what to expect. But ever since I jumped up to 20-23g batches Ive jumped at least 7%. Yesterdays batch my preboil volume started out 3 points higher than my expected OG. Set my recipe up for 80% on 42#'s of grain for a 22g batch at 1.056 OG. I was 1.060 preboil and left 4 brix in the Tun. I could of flushed out the remaining gallon or so that was left in the Tun and maybe lowered what was in the Kettle a point or two but I wasn't sure I had enough head space in the Kettle to do so. What I ended up doing is adding just a tad more bittering hops at 30min. because I wasn't 100% sure where I would be at the end of the boil. Boiled gentle and had a 1.064 gravity after 60min. I then diluted with 3g of filtered water, brought it back to a boil for a short while and my gravity was nuts on my intended of 1.056, but with 24g instead of 22g I was aiming for. No problems, I had the pitch and the fermenter space. The gravity sample tasted what I was after IBU wise.I haven't changed anything in technique really other than ditching my HERMS. I haven't felt like putting my small 5g electric HERMS into the system, nor have I wanted to add a coil to my 25g HLT. What I have been doing is towards the end of the mash is recirc. the Tun into itself. So that means I haven't been doing a mash out in the Tun. But, the fire is on the Kettle while sparging so I should be mashing out in the Kettle. I haven't gotten a water report for years. I do use PH 5.2 in the mash to adjust in the Tun. I'm fly sparging. My grain and crush hasn't changed. I just cant figure it out. Anybody have any ideas?
#2
stangbat
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Posted 29 April 2009 - 08:47 AM
I didn't realize you had stopped using your HERMS when we were discussing this earlier. The only guess I have, and this is a long shot, is that since you aren't doing a mash out like you used to, you are getting more conversion during your recirc period. Where before you were stopping any conversion in the tun with the HERMS and your mash out. But the counter argument is that without the mash out your efficiency should drop because you aren't raising the temps and getting the sugars as fluid. Another counter argument is that most of your conversion should have taken place long before you get to the recirc. So I guess I'm still throwing darts at your "problem". 
#3
djinkc
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Posted 29 April 2009 - 08:57 AM
Better Grain?Scale is off?MUI ?
#4
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Posted 29 April 2009 - 09:10 AM
I thought about all that too Erik. Now that I think about it, its possible that conversion has not 100% taken place. Usually when I used my HERMS, I would start to recirc to mash out at 45min into the mash and be at mash out at 60min. But I'm sure the mash has converted by the 45min mark. I now remember a conversation we all had about conversion times, mash out times on the way to Madison that year the KC Crew went to The Great Taste. I decided to do the 45min mash 15min recirc mash out and see if it effected eff. and if it didn't Id switch to that from a 60min mash then mash out. So obviously it didn't effect eff. or conversion because I stuck with the 45min/15min time. But now w/o the use of the HERMS maybe I'm not getting the results of a mash out in the Kettle after a 60min mash then recirc the Tun into itself. Maybe I will try a 35min mash and recirc the Tun into itself for 15min, then sparge. But Id hate to go the other way and be shy of my intended preboil volume gravity. Man, this kinda sucks. Its like learning my system that Ive know for years all over again.
Ive been using grain thats been stored properly for over a yearSame piece of shit lock out scale ive always used.Never until after the first hop addition!Better Grain?Scale is off?MUI ?
Edited by Blktre, 29 April 2009 - 09:12 AM.
#5
davelew
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Posted 29 April 2009 - 09:13 AM
Without the HERMS has the dead space in your system changed?
#6
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Posted 29 April 2009 - 09:16 AM
Not sure what you mean dead space?Without the HERMS has the dead space in your system changed?
#7
davelew
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Posted 29 April 2009 - 01:17 PM
The wort that doesn't make it into the BK. For example, the wort that's below the outlet in a MLT (and which stays in the MLT instead of making it to the BK) is in the dead space. In general, the more dead space in your system, the lower the efficiency. Since it sounds like you re-plumbed to get rid of the HERMS, I though maybe the dead space had changed as well.Not sure what you mean dead space?
#8
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Posted 29 April 2009 - 02:06 PM
That's what i thought you meant. Everything is the exact same in my system as before except my HLT is 25g and there is not a coil in it. My HERMS is a converted Sankey 1/2 bll. Its just not big enuff for the volumes I'm brewing. MT is the same and I did not replumb anything. Just using 25g HLT instead of my converted keg HERMS. My system is a 2 tier w/the HLT on top. I use gravity from the HLT for sparge water. All my hoses have QD's on them. When fly sparging i hook all my hoses from the bottom side of the MT thru the pump and into the Kettle. I use gravity and head pressure on the MT to get 7/8 of my preboil volume before i switch the pump on to finish my sparge. It works even tho the MT and Keggle are on the same plane.The wort that doesn't make it into the BK. For example, the wort that's below the outlet in a MLT (and which stays in the MLT instead of making it to the BK) is in the dead space. In general, the more dead space in your system, the lower the efficiency. Since it sounds like you re-plumbed to get rid of the HERMS, I though maybe the dead space had changed as well.
#9
djinkc
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Posted 29 April 2009 - 04:07 PM
weird... Year old grain - maybe it lost some moisture content.
#10
MyaCullen
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Posted 29 April 2009 - 04:56 PM
maybe weigh a full sack and an empty sack and see if the weight is still at the correct amount?weird... Year old grain - maybe it lost some moisture content.
#11
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Posted 29 April 2009 - 05:52 PM
Daym, didn't think about that. I cant weigh new/older grain because i store loose in my sealed open head drums. But do you really think it would effect it that many points? Maybe some, but not a 3g dilute would it?weird... Year old grain - maybe it lost some moisture content.
#12
stellarbrew
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Posted 29 April 2009 - 06:20 PM
If I understand correctly, you are brewing a greater volume of beer, using the same mash tun. This implies to me that your grain bill is larger, proportionate to the increase in batch size. Thus, you would have a greater grain bed depth to sparge through. What I'm wondering is if the increased grain bed depth has allowed for a more uniform flow through the bed when you are sparging, and an increase in efficiency. Palmer talks about grain bed depth and it's effect on efficiency in "How to brew", discussing it in terms of fluid mechanics. What he says is, "...increasing the grain bed depth chages the proportion of the grain bed that is outside the convergence zone, which increases the proportion of uniform flow, which increases the extraction efficiency as a whole."
#13
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Posted 29 April 2009 - 07:04 PM
Stellar,I think your in the ball park. I built my tun to his spec's. But the thing is, Ive had that Tun full before doing Big Beers more than once. I did get good eff. on those beers too. So maybe that's it. Between that and a slow fly sparge together, has caused a jump. Its the only thing that makes sense to me.
#14
djinkc
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Posted 29 April 2009 - 07:20 PM
Did you slow it down? Made a big difference at my place, but I also cut the mash time so it's hard to tell which did what. I'm making 1.050 - 1.055+ beers with a lot less grain than before. Hitting 85% more often than not - sometimes higher. It was mid 70's a year ago. Of course this is to get 13.5 gal in the kettle but it takes me 60 - 65 min to get that volume. Coleman 70 qt cooler, recirc when the EHLT has recovered enough and start a mashout recirc at ~ 45 minutes. Fly.... It was a simple decision to slow down the sparge flow since I have a limited heat source with electric. Beginning sparge to boil times remained the same so I slowed it down. End of sparge now pretty much matches the beginning of the boil. Works here anyway.BTW, I have that same POS lock out scale...... sitting on a shelf - got tired of it. Got the one Cyburai has....................... slow fly sparge.......
#15
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Posted 29 April 2009 - 08:09 PM
Ive always sparged at a reasonable rate. Ive saved many hrs on my pump by sparging the way i do. So what the heck. Ive got a few ideas to try next time. All things being equal, i think i will adjust my recipe at 85% and sparge my normal speed and see where this lands me.I'm to cheap to buy another grain weigherouter.
Edited by Blktre, 29 April 2009 - 08:10 PM.
#16
djinkc
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Posted 29 April 2009 - 08:16 PM
The only reason I didn't take that %(@)(*% scale out in the driveway and adjust it with my 3# hammer was that someday the other one won't work.If you're wondering, we both have one that will lock out the weight in about 20 - 30 seconds unless you keep hitting it with your thumb. Stupid scale......... I got tired of it and bought another one........I'm to cheap to buy another grain weigherouter.
#17
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Posted 29 April 2009 - 08:20 PM
I just wait the 10 seconds for it to unlock itself. I'm to lazy to hit a button all the time.
#18
djinkc
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Posted 29 April 2009 - 08:33 PM
Run your truck over it a few times, then see if the cows will eat it. 
You will be happier. That is a scale from the devil, it PO'd me to many times.I may just beat the hell out of tonight because...........
You will be happier. That is a scale from the devil, it PO'd me to many times.I may just beat the hell out of tonight because...........
#19
kbhale
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Posted 29 April 2009 - 11:56 PM
I hope it happens often for ya.
#20
Stout_fan
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Posted 30 April 2009 - 06:10 AM
Get a 1000 ml graduated cylinder, fill it with grain and strike the top.Weigh both samples.At least it's a data point.Daym, didn't think about that. I cant weigh new/older grain because i store loose in my sealed open head drums. But do you really think it would effect it that many points? Maybe some, but not a 3g dilute would it?
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