28 replies to this topic

[Big Nake]

I know I'm probably beating a dead horse on this, but I feel like there is some missing puzzle piece that I need to find. Over here, I was looking into water and Palmer's spreadsheet as well. I am fixated on this chloride-to-sulfate ratio which has a range in the spreadsheet that runs from "very malty" to "very bitter". Some brewers I have discussed this with suggest that the idea is oversimplified. Anyway, my water with no salt additions shows an ideal SRM range of 7 to 12. Adding CaCl will bring that range down to 3 to 8 with about 2-3 grams of CaCl. The chloride-to-sulfate ratio shows "very malty". Making gypsum additions brings that ratio around to "balanced" and eventually "very bitter" if I keep going. But what about when I'm trying to make a lager and gypsum is not suitable? If I make an amber lager or festbier of some sort and the recipe is already leaning to the maltier side and my water is "very malty", what's the best solution to get the ratio balanced? I made a pilsner awhile back and added some CaCl to get my calcium number up. I hopped the beer nicely with all Saaz, but a few brewers said, "Wow, this is REALLY malty!". Is that from the chloride-to-sulfate ratio? I wouldn't want to add gypsum to a pils, would I? Thanks for letting me vent on this. Cheers!

[chuck_d]

Ah, over here too... for those that don't double down...As I said, I don't think it matters if it's a lager for adding Gypsum if you want to accentuate the hops. Sulfates can come in either form MgSO4 or CaSO4. They accentuate the bitterness, which is what you want in order to get the balance to shift from malty to bitter. I basically look at it as their components doing the work. Sulfates from MgSO4 and CaSO4 will both help to shift the Cl/SO4 ratio just as CaCl2 and and NaCl will shift it in the opposite direction. In adjusting my water profiles I'm never "Burtonizing" my water, in that I'm not trying to match anyone else's water profile. I'm trying ensure the proper balance of ions for flavor and production reasons. So I'd want to add Ca to your mash in order to have it available as a co-enzyme, so I like to shoot for at least 80ppm. Mg is important for yeast fermentation, so you want to make sure it's available in sufficient amounts, and if you have to add SO4 anyways it just helps out in that balance thing. Mg in high amounts can give a slightly bitter or sour flavor, I heard Ashton Lewis describe it as metallic to his taste. So, if you need Ca, you need to add it some form. I usually work with CaCl2 and CaSO4 watching my Cl/SO4 balance. I always add some MgSO4 because I have so little Mg in my water (and I don't bother with prepackged yeast fuels). If you stay below 30ppm, I don't think it will have much if any impact on flavor. If you play with NaCl, you'll get a salty taste over 100ppm, but lower some of it can be nice for the mouthfeel of a malty beer. So really I just try to make sure I have at least 80ppm Ca, at least 10ppm Mg, my target RA is in range and my balance is correct. It's a trial and error process that I go through in my spreadsheet once a recipe is finalized.Sorry bro, I haven't had the time to see your other thread.

[Big Nake]

Thanks chuck_d. This is good stuff because I did not consider epsom salt as a salt addition... only CaCl and gypsum. If my Mg number is a little low and it's important for yeast health, it seems very good. The rest of this discussion is over here. Cheers!

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Thanks chuck_d. This is good stuff because I did not consider epsom salt as a salt addition... only CaCl and gypsum. If my Mg number is a little low and it's important for yeast health, it seems very good. The rest of this discussion is over here. Cheers!

It's weird b/c I never even noticed epsom salt on the spreadsheet as something I could be adding b/c I believe I too have low mg in my water. Where does one buy epsom salt? Is it a common commercial product?

[Big Nake]

It's supposed to be something you can add to bath water to soothe aching muscles. My wife has a 10-lb tub in our bathroom which I usually ignore. Last night I grabbed some and put it into a small container in my brewing area. As far as these additions go, can I assume that any and all of these things would be added directly to the mash? My next beer is a good example... I'm going to make MLPA which is already a malty beer. If I leave my water alone or just try to get my Ca up with calcium chloride, the ratio will be "very malty". So I am going to add about ¼ tsp of the epsom salt which will not only bump my Mg from 12 to 19 but will also set my ratio to "balanced". I'm interested in seeing how well this comes out.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

It's supposed to be something you can add to bath water to soothe aching muscles. My wife has a 10-lb tub in our bathroom which I usually ignore. Last night I grabbed some and put it into a small container in my brewing area.

where did she buy it? i'd be a little nervous about using something intended for the bath b/c I might suspect it to contain perfumes or something.

[Big Nake]

where did she buy it? i'd be a little nervous about using something intended for the bath b/c I might suspect it to contain perfumes or something.

No, it's not like that. This was either picked up at the Target, Sam's Club, Walmart, etc. The label shows "Magnesium Sulfate" and directions for how you can use it for various things... a saline laxative (no thanks), in the bath and also as a plant food supplement. How come it doesn't tell you how to use it to modify your brewing water?? Also, last night I opened it and took a sniff. No odor. I didn't taste it, but I can if you want me to. :DI wonder if some of these guys add this stuff someplace else besides directly to the mash. I should just be able to add this right into the MT when the grains and water are being mixed, correct?

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I should just be able to add this right into the MT when the grains and water are being mixed, correct?

That's what I would do. If it's intended to adjust mash pH I'm not sure when else you could add it???ETA: if you are just looking to add mg and make the beer more crisp I guess you could add it later but I'd still put it in the mash.

[Howie]

where did she buy it? i'd be a little nervous about using something intended for the bath b/c I might suspect it to contain perfumes or something.

I'd suspect you can buy plain epsom salt at any grocery store or pharmacy in America. As Ken suggested, unless it specifically says it has additives, then it's just plain old Magnesium Sulfate.

[Big Nake]

That's what I would do. If it's intended to adjust mash pH I'm not sure when else you could add it???ETA: if you are just looking to add mg and make the beer more crisp I guess you could add it later but I'd still put it in the mash.

That's my plan. When I make MLPA later this week, I plan to use ½ tsp of calcium chloride (to get my calcium number up) and then about ¼ tsp epsom salt to get the Mg number up a little bit and also adjust that ratio to "balanced". I'm not looking for "harshness", but "crisp" is a better word for it. All of this plus the fact that Mg is supposed to be better for the yeast (and my Mg number is a little low) sounds like a win-win. Unless all this epsom salt gives me the jeets. Ha, I'm only using ¼ tsp. Cheers.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

That's my plan. When I make MLPA later this week, I plan to use ½ tsp of calcium chloride (to get my calcium number up) and then about ¼ tsp epsom salt to get the Mg number up a little bit and also adjust that ratio to "balanced". I'm not looking for "harshness", but "crisp" is a better word for it. All of this plus the fact that Mg is supposed to be better for the yeast (and my Mg number is a little low) sounds like a win-win. Unless all this epsom salt gives me the jeets. Ha, I'm only using ¼ tsp. Cheers.

report back on that issue

[Big Nake]

report back on that issue

I think I read on Palmer's site that your Mg number would have to be really high... like 100ppm or higher. Some of these salts work this way. I forget which one, but if you reach a certain concentration, it will cause diarrhea!

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I think I read on Palmer's site that your Mg number would have to be really high... like 100ppm or higher. Some of these salts work this way. I forget which one, but if you reach a certain concentration, it will cause diarrhea!

pwnt

[chuck_d]

The label shows "Magnesium Sulfate" and directions for how you can use it for various things... a saline laxative (no thanks), in the bath and also as a plant food supplement. How come it doesn't tell you how to use it to modify your brewing water?? Also, last night I opened it and took a sniff. No odor. I didn't taste it, but I can if you want me to. :DI wonder if some of these guys add this stuff someplace else besides directly to the mash. I should just be able to add this right into the MT when the grains and water are being mixed, correct?

I crush my grains directly into my mash tun, then measure out and add the salts, then add the strike water. I do the first two while my strike water is heating. Yeah, too much magnesium is supposed to make you have to go. FWIW, I bought my Epsom Salt at like a veterinary supply online shop.

[Big Nake]

I think I've digested enough of this stuff to at least conduct an experiment. I'm going to make my MLPA (already a malty beer) on Thursday. I'm going to add about ¼ tsp of calcium chloride along with a little over ¼ tsp (1½ grams) of epsom salt which brings my calcium number to 58 and my sulfate number to 61, brings my chloride-to-sulfate ratio to "balanced" and my ideal SRM range from 10 to 15 (this is a 10 SRM beer). Also, in the target SRM box, he explains that you should use the low end of the SRM range for beers whose color comes from crystal malts (as mine does) and the higher end for beers whose color comes from roasted malt. So this looks like a very good experiment all the way around.I also just went back and looked at the last few recipes that I made (a Mexiacn Vienna, my Home Run Red, a Cerveza Clara) and in all of those recipes I made the mistake of just adding some calcium chloride which is compounding my already-too-malty ratio, IMO. On only one beer did I make a good decision (an amber ale) where I added gypsum instead so I sould punch up the perceived bitterness a little bit. It doesn't look like I should be making any beers where I just add some CaCl... I would have to balance it with some magnesium sulfate (epsom salt) or gypsum as well, depending on style. I'm starting to think about this stuff in my sleep... not good.

[Joe]

Ken,If you are just trying to add sulfate or chloride, you can add the salts directly to your wort during the boil. They do not need to be added during the mash. The only things that affect mash are calcium and to a much smaller extent magnesium - and these act to lower the PH. So if you are hitting your PH just fine and just want to adjust the sulfate/chloride ratio, just add it to your wort during boil. The salts do not need to be cooked or mashed for sulfate or chloride to 'work' - in fact you can add them directly to a glass of poured and carbonated beer if you so desired to see what the affects/difference would be.Joe

[Big Nake]

Ken,If you are just trying to add sulfate or chloride, you can add the salts directly to your wort during the boil. They do not need to be added during the mash. The only things that affect mash are calcium and to a much smaller extent magnesium - and these act to lower the PH. So if you are hitting your PH just fine and just want to adjust the sulfate/chloride ratio, just add it to your wort during boil. The salts do not need to be cooked or mashed for sulfate or chloride to 'work' - in fact you can add them directly to a glass of poured and carbonated beer if you so desired to see what the affects/difference would be.Joe

Thanks Joe. Yeah, I was actually having a similar conversation about that this morning and the other part of it is that more of the salts will make it into the primary if they're added to the brewpot than they would if they were added to the MT, apparently. I have never made additions to the brewpot so that would be a new one. I'm going to try these various things but only one at a time. On Thursday, it's MLPA with some added epsom salt to see if there's a noticeable difference in this chloride-to-sulfate ratio. Good stuff!

[harryfrog]

Ken - if you have a keg of MLPA sitting around, do the experiment on finished beer first. One of the guys in our brew club did this with table salt (to up the sodium level of the beer) and it was interesting how it changed the flavor. Better yet, treat one glass, have a non - treated glass and have your wife swap them around and have you blindly taste the difference.

[Big Nake]

I do not have a keg of MLPA, but I do have on tap right now a Mexican Dark Lager that is "good", but I think suffers from this overly-malty issue. If I tapped a pint of that beer into a glass, what would I add? Just a pinch of epsom salt since that is what I was considering adding to boost the sulfate? That's a good idea and I wasn't sure how accurate of a test that would be. If that's the proper way to test it, I'll do it tonight.

[harryfrog]

I do not have a keg of MLPA, but I do have on tap right now a Mexican Dark Lager that is "good", but I think suffers from this overly-malty issue. If I tapped a pint of that beer into a glass, what would I add? Just a pinch of epsom salt since that is what I was considering adding to boost the sulfate? That's a good idea and I wasn't sure how accurate of a test that would be. If that's the proper way to test it, I'll do it tonight.

If you were planning on 1.5 grams / 5 gallons, you could mix 0.04g into your 16oz glass of beer. Don't know if your gram scale is that accurate and if it would be that indicative of a whole scale test, but hey, give it a shot and report back!