18 replies to this topic

[Joe]

So I have an admission to make. I've been brewing for a total of 6 years. And I'm a water noob. There. I said - it's out. I know jack about water.I have always seen water threads and I've always pretty much ignored them - happy to be brewing in my low tech ignorant kind of way. Heck - I never even measured my mash ph! Just mix it and sparge (the no worries school of brewing). My water tastes good (at least to me) so I just used it. Beer has always tasted just fine, some may even say pretty darn good.And then I read one - a dreaded water thread. And then another. Then I read Palmer's stuff on water analysis. So I had to know - was my mash ph... bad? So I got the numbers from my water supply. Based on the numbers, I shouldn't be brewing anything lighter than a 22 SRM. Yikes! Now that I think about, that last pale ale tasted a little astringent... and that last hydro sample... was that suspended yeast or tannins??? The paranoia becomes rampant... remedied only by (possibly astringent tasting) homebrew.In any case, I'm obviously out of range. So I'm going to pick up some ph strips and some brewing salts and do her right this weekend. Who knows - maybe the beer will be even better. But... I want to make sure I'm doing this right so wanted to see if some of you water guys could just sanity check my additions.I'm brewing Denny's Rye IPA - SRM: 12-13. Only doing 5 gallons this time because, well, that's a lot of grain.Here is my current water analysis (since my water is drawn from any of four wells, this is an average, not exact):Calcium: 98Magnesium: 12CaCO3: 280Sodium: 4Chloride: 8Sulfate: 50This gives me a residual alkalinity of 203 - which puts me in the 22-27 SRM range. (This all based on Palmer's spreadsheet).So, to brew the Rye IPA with an SRM of 12, I need to lower than RA to at least 85 (I'll shoot for 65 to play it safe).To do that, I am thinking of adding 2 teaspoons (~8 grams) of gypsum and 1.5 teaspoons (~6 grams) of calcium chloride to 5 gallons of strike water. This will lower my RA to 65 and also balances out the chloride/sulfate ratio a bit more (but still keeps it in the 'bitter' range). My finished water profile is thus:Calcium: 283Magnesium: 12CaCO3: 280Sodium: 4Chloride: 161Sulfate: 286So - sanity check. This seems like a lot of salts to be adding to 5 gallons of water. Is this sound thinking?Also - since I'm batch sparging, do I need to 'salt' the sparge water as well?Thanks for the help guys. Sorry for the long post.Joe

[Humperdink]

So I have an admission to make. I've been brewing for a total of 6 years. And I'm a water noob. There. I said - it's out. I know jack about water.I have always seen water threads and I've always pretty much ignored them - happy to be brewing in my low tech ignorant kind of way. Heck - I never even measured my mash ph! Just mix it and sparge (the no worries school of brewing). My water tastes good (at least to me) so I just used it. Beer has always tasted just fine, some may even say pretty darn good.And then I read one - a dreaded water thread. And then another. Then I read Palmer's stuff on water analysis. So I had to know - was my mash ph... bad? So I got the numbers from my water supply. Based on the numbers, I shouldn't be brewing anything lighter than a 22 SRM. Yikes! Now that I think about, that last pale ale tasted a little astringent... and that last hydro sample... was that suspended yeast or tannins??? The paranoia becomes rampant... remedied only by (possibly astringent tasting) homebrew.In any case, I'm obviously out of range. So I'm going to pick up some ph strips and some brewing salts and do her right this weekend. Who knows - maybe the beer will be even better. But... I want to make sure I'm doing this right so wanted to see if some of you water guys could just sanity check my additions.I'm brewing Denny's Rye IPA - SRM: 12-13. Only doing 5 gallons this time because, well, that's a lot of grain.Here is my current water analysis (since my water is drawn from any of four wells, this is an average, not exact):Calcium: 98Magnesium: 12CaCO3: 280Sodium: 4Chloride: 8Sulfate: 50This gives me a residual alkalinity of 203 - which puts me in the 22-27 SRM range. (This all based on Palmer's spreadsheet).So, to brew the Rye IPA with an SRM of 12, I need to lower than RA to at least 85 (I'll shoot for 65 to play it safe).To do that, I am thinking of adding 2 teaspoons (~8 grams) of gypsum and 1.5 teaspoons (~6 grams) of calcium chloride to 5 gallons of strike water. This will lower my RA to 65 and also balances out the chloride/sulfate ratio a bit more (but still keeps it in the 'bitter' range). My finished water profile is thus:Calcium: 283Magnesium: 12CaCO3: 280Sodium: 4Chloride: 161Sulfate: 286So - sanity check. This seems like a lot of salts to be adding to 5 gallons of water. Is this sound thinking?Also - since I'm batch sparging, do I need to 'salt' the sparge water as well?Thanks for the help guys. Sorry for the long post.Joe

Hey Joe! I'm glad you posted about it. I think it's much better to ask the questions than brew and have some thought in the back of your head. It's amazing what insecurities can do to what you're tasting. I know I can be psychosomatic from time to time and it's better just to educate yourself. It's really not that daunting of a task. Where to start: If you already read palmer's section on water then you've got a great basis for this topic. I'd recommend also listening to the four part water chemistry show on the brewing network show 1&2 and at the bottom of this page water 3 &4.. That said, download Palmer's spreadsheet and do your calcs. The water shows give some info that's displayed differently than you'll see in palmer's book so I'd recommend them highly. I've listened to them all three or four times to make sure I was getting all the info and not leaving anything behind. Sit down with a beer and dig in if you can. If not just use the spreadsheet. That all being said, That's some pretty hard water my friend. I didn't do the calcs for you, but I'd think that if it takes that much salts to lower the pH to the right range than it may be worth cutting you water with RO to soften it some. The spreadsheet will make this a lot easier to calculate.Check it out and post any new findings or questions and we'll all help where we can. Cheers and good on you for asking!Chris

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I think an important question is how diff are the 4 wells?

[Joe]

That all being said, That's some pretty hard water my friend. I didn't do the calcs for you, but I'd think that if it takes that much salts to lower the pH to the right range than it may be worth cutting you water with RO to soften it some. The spreadsheet will make this a lot easier to calculate.Check it out and post any new findings or questions and we'll all help where we can. Cheers and good on you for asking!Chris

Thanks Chris. I'll check out the Brewing Network programs. I was doing a bit more reading last night and saw that calcium levels over 150 ppm can precipitate phosphate in the wort which creates deficiency in yeast nutrient. So it sounds like adding a bunch of calcium salts isn't the way to go. I played around with Palmer's spreadsheet and I can get below 150 ppm and still hit my RA with a 20% dilution rate of distilled water. I'll give it a shot this weekend and see how it plays out - but I'll definitely keep researching.Zym - the report I saw didn't list many readings for two of the wells. However, most of the readings were relatively close. Calcium varied was as low as 86 in one. Sulfate was as high as 80 in one. Percentage-wise, all of the readings I saw were within the same ballpark. I'll shoot conservative with my salt adjustments and work up to any additions as well use ph strips to double check my additions. I won't lose sleep over things I can't change however - and that is unfortunately one of 'em.Joe

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Thanks Chris. I'll check out the Brewing Network programs. I was doing a bit more reading last night and saw that calcium levels over 150 ppm can precipitate phosphate in the wort which creates deficiency in yeast nutrient. So it sounds like adding a bunch of calcium salts isn't the way to go. I played around with Palmer's spreadsheet and I can get below 150 ppm and still hit my RA with a 20% dilution rate of distilled water. I'll give it a shot this weekend and see how it plays out - but I'll definitely keep researching.Zym - the report I saw didn't list many readings for two of the wells. However, most of the readings were relatively close. Calcium varied was as low as 86 in one. Sulfate was as high as 80 in one. Percentage-wise, all of the readings I saw were within the same ballpark. I'll shoot conservative with my salt adjustments and work up to any additions as well use ph strips to double check my additions. I won't lose sleep over things I can't change however - and that is unfortunately one of 'em.Joe

Try and get high quality pH strips (colorphast I believe are the best). I have some cheaper ones and they don't seem that great. I always seem to have low pH so I add more chalk, mix, wait a few minutes and check again and the color looks the same to me. It makes me wonder if they really work.

[Joe]

Try and get high quality pH strips (colorphast I believe are the best). I have some cheaper ones and they don't seem that great. I always seem to have low pH so I add more chalk, mix, wait a few minutes and check again and the color looks the same to me. It makes me wonder if they really work.

When you mix salts with the mash, about how long do you typically need to wait to see a ph change?

[zymot]

If you got variables as in multiple sources, (I have the same situation) I think your best bet is FiveStar 5.2 pH buffer. It is intended to swamp what ever is in your water and lock your MASH in at pH 5.2 regardless of your water profile. (there are limits, but I think you are well within those extremes)Our friend at Brewmasters Warehouse sells 1 lb for $9.99. One pound will last you for many many batches, I still have 3/4 of my jar. https://www.brewmast...stabilizer-1-lbYou can fuss and worry and always have in the back of your head, "Maybe I added too much . . . . " or "Aw I think I should have used . . . . " Or you can mix 5.2 at the beginning of each mash and get on with your brew day and don't look back.(Just one person's 2 cents)zymot

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

If you got variables as in multiple sources, (I have the same situation) I think your best bet is FiveStar 5.2 pH buffer. It is intended to swamp what ever is in your water and lock your MASH in at pH 5.2 regardless of your water profile. (there are limits, but I think you are well within those extremes)Our friend at Brewmasters Warehouse sells 1 lb for $9.99. One pound will last you for many many batches, I still have 3/4 of my jar. https://www.brewmast...stabilizer-1-lbYou can fuss and worry and always have in the back of your head, "Maybe I added too much . . . . " or "Aw I think I should have used . . . . " Or you can mix 5.2 at the beginning of each mash and get on with your brew day and don't look back.(Just one person's 2 cents)zymot

not bad advice since the water is variable. another option would be to find a consistent water source.

[BrewerGeorge]

With water that hard, it's going to be difficult to get it into range with just salts. Dilution with RO water, so lactic acid will make things MUCH easier. I have similar water, but not as many sulfates. I use Palmer's spreadsheet and adjust salts to get to the flavor profile I want first. After that, I add enough 88% lactic acid to get the RA range I want for the color. Works great, and I've never had the measured pH be significantly off from the pH that Palmer's spreadsheet predicted. I wouldn't worry too much about the variability. Odds are they pump from all those wells at the same time and mix the output in the water towers anyway.

[Joe]

With water that hard, it's going to be difficult to get it into range with just salts. Dilution with RO water, so lactic acid will make things MUCH easier. I have similar water, but not as many sulfates. I use Palmer's spreadsheet and adjust salts to get to the flavor profile I want first. After that, I add enough 88% lactic acid to get the RA range I want for the color. Works great, and I've never had the measured pH be significantly off from the pH that Palmer's spreadsheet predicted. I wouldn't worry too much about the variability. Odds are they pump from all those wells at the same time and mix the output in the water towers anyway.

Lactic acid seems to be the way to go. Simplifies things by a lot and keeps me from having to buy water (which I'm morally against - because I'm cheap).So I still need to listen to the brew strong shows - but do you ever find the flavor from the lactic acid to throw off lighter beers? I know we're not talking a lot here - 3-4ml for 5 gallons of water, but not sure if you've ever run into a problem with the flavor.

[BrewerGeorge]

No flavor problems, but I've never tried to use enough of it to get down to 3-4 SRM from my base water. If I need that light, I always dilute with RO. (I have an RO system for drinking water, so it's just annoying to collect, not expensive.)

[DaBearSox]

If you got variables as in multiple sources, (I have the same situation) I think your best bet is FiveStar 5.2 pH buffer. It is intended to swamp what ever is in your water and lock your MASH in at pH 5.2 regardless of your water profile. (there are limits, but I think you are well within those extremes)Our friend at Brewmasters Warehouse sells 1 lb for $9.99. One pound will last you for many many batches, I still have 3/4 of my jar. https://www.brewmast...stabilizer-1-lbYou can fuss and worry and always have in the back of your head, "Maybe I added too much . . . . " or "Aw I think I should have used . . . . " Or you can mix 5.2 at the beginning of each mash and get on with your brew day and don't look back.(Just one person's 2 cents)zymot

I gotta say I am with Zymot on this one...out here in Colorado we have great water for brewing however in Denver the water could be coming from any one of 3 reservoirs or a mix at any given time. I decided to go with the pH 5.2 buffer and have been using it for awhile now. There was a small bump in efficiency and I believe it took my pales to the next level. I checked pH with it the first few times and it was pretty much on the nose so now I just set it and forget it...umm I mean add it to the mash while stirring and pretty much know my mash pH will be perfect.

[BrewerGeorge]

5.2 is of limited usefulness for water as hard as mine and Joe's. Using it is definitely better than nothing, but it's not as good as controlling the water yourself. It's capable of getting our water down to the pale ale range, but starts to become less effective below 10 SRM. There's just too much stuff in our water for it to handle.Also, for everyone IMO, it does a poor job or raising RA or helping you brew darker beers than your water can handle.

[Humperdink]

When you mix salts with the mash, about how long do you typically need to wait to see a ph change?

I didn't see this answered, but I generally wait 15-20 minutes before I use a pH test strip. And I'm with Zym on the colophast. I think they are .3 increments from 3-6 pH. Much more accurate.ETA: Hiller Engrish

Edited by chriscose, 17 February 2010 - 10:16 AM.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I didn't see this answered, but I generally wait 15-20 minutes before I use a pH test strip. And I'm with Zym on the colophast. I think they are .3 increments from 3-6 pH. Much more accurate.ETA: Hiller Engrish

I usually wait about 5 minutes - maybe I should wait longer

[orudis]

I also have really hard water and find it easiest to just use RO water, its like 25 cents a gallon at walmart. Then I add back gypsum and or CaCl for calcium and the flavor profile I'm aiming for. I also use a spreadsheet from a former greenboarder that is pretty great, it is based on Palmer's RA stuff. My link

[Big Nake]

Orudis... thanks for that link. I do like these tools, but I have to say... I must be very challenged in this area because every time I try to dig into brewing water chemistry, my teeth start to itch. I don't want to hijack this thread, but I may start another thread about my water profile and ask about the various styles that work well with it. I also looked at Palmer's spreadsheet but I honestly can't tell you what it's trying to tell me. Yes, I'm embarassed to admit that.

[orudis]

IMO reading the water chapter of the book a few times is the way to get up to speed. Also the BN waterganza. I listen to them at the gym.

[Joe]

Just wanted to thank everyone for the help. You guys have really helped steer me in the right direction.