9 replies to this topic

[Howie]

This was a debate on another forum, thought I'd bring it here. . .In Palmer's spreadsheet (and also in the BrewStrong water show), Palmer suggests the bitterness profile is mostly attributed to the chloride to sulfate ratio. This would indicate that you don't need a huge amount of sulfates as long as your ratio is correct.Many people seem to disagree and think it's more about the total sulfate amount - you can't brew a good IPA unless you have 150-200ppm of sulfate.What say ye?

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

This was a debate on another forum, thought I'd bring it here. . .In Palmer's spreadsheet (and also in the BrewStrong water show), Palmer suggests the bitterness profile is mostly attributed to the chloride to sulfate ratio. This would indicate that you don't need a huge amount of sulfates as long as your ratio is correct.Many people seem to disagree and think it's more about the total sulfate amount - you can't brew a good IPA unless you have 150-200ppm of sulfate.What say ye?

If I remember when I get home I'll check out what my numbers were on the AIPA I brewed early in the summer...

[Humperdink]

This was a debate on another forum, thought I'd bring it here. . .In Palmer's spreadsheet (and also in the BrewStrong water show), Palmer suggests the bitterness profile is mostly attributed to the chloride to sulfate ratio. This would indicate that you don't need a huge amount of sulfates as long as your ratio is correct.Many people seem to disagree and think it's more about the total sulfate amount - you can't brew a good IPA unless you have 150-200ppm of sulfate.What say ye?

It's a little early for me given I'm only on my first cup of coffee so bear with me as I try to make sense here.I think there are two issues at hand here and as I understand it, it would be both. The first being:I don't believe you can get the overall mineral content that I'd want in an IPA without a larger number of minerals in solution. I think this is where the total sulfate argument comes in. I don't think I've ever had an IPA that seemed right to me with soft water (homebrewwed as I can't speak for commercial). Given that, I believe that the bitterness profile and mouthfeel are also being generated by the chloride to sulfate ratio. Listening to the downtown joe's brewcast where colin kominsky says try dosing a beer with chloride and then dosing it with sulfate (mixed in water) and see the difference those make. I love playing around with chloride to sulfate ratios, that was one of my favorite parts about moving is I had to add salts to every brew because my water is so soft. I don't think I'd have experimented nearly as much if I wasn't forced to for fear of messing something up. Having said that, I don't think that an IPA would be an IPA without a sulfate heavily balance in that ratio. I think both play a role, but I would throw my vote behind ratio first then total mineral content in the beer. YMMVChris

[3rd party JKor]

I view it like salt and sugar in cooking. You can add a lot or a little of each and still have a balance of saltiness/sweetness, but if you want a good dessert you need a lot of sugar.Comprende?

Edited by JKoravos, 21 December 2009 - 12:39 PM.

[Humperdink]

I view it like salt and sugar in cooking. You can add a lot or a little of each and still have a balance of saltiness/sweetness, but if you want a good dessert you need a lot of sugar.Comprende?

Concise and easy to understand. +1

[Humperdink]

This was a debate on another forum, thought I'd bring it here. . .In Palmer's spreadsheet (and also in the BrewStrong water show), Palmer suggests the bitterness profile is mostly attributed to the chloride to sulfate ratio. This would indicate that you don't need a huge amount of sulfates as long as your ratio is correct.Many people seem to disagree and think it's more about the total sulfate amount - you can't brew a good IPA unless you have 150-200ppm of sulfate.What say ye?

Mind linking so I can read what their debate was?

[3rd party JKor]

Mind linking so I can read what their debate was?

He talked about this in the brew strong 'waterganza'. IIRC, he brought up a study that showed that the perception of bitterness/maltiness was almost solely dependent on the CL:SO4 ratio, as opposed to the total quantity of either. I don't think he cited the study. I have the mp3 of the brewcast in my car. I'll see if I can find it on the way home.

[Humperdink]

He talked about this in the brew strong 'waterganza'. IIRC, he brought up a study that showed that the perception of bitterness/maltiness was almost solely dependent on the CL:SO4 ratio, as opposed to the total quantity of either. I don't think he cited the study. I have the mp3 of the brewcast in my car. I'll see if I can find it on the way home.

Appreciate it J, but I was referring to the debate on the other forum.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

on my last AIPA:sulfate: 144 ppmchloride: 26 ppm(this is using palmers spreadsheet)

[Howie]

Mind linking so I can read what their debate was?

Northern Brewer "bitterness" threadThe sugar thing makes a reasonable amount of sense.