38 replies to this topic

[Humperdink]

For the first time in probably 30-35 batches, I made a beer that I don't really want to drink. It smells and tastes of green apples. Usually my beers are pretty clean and each sip makes me thirsty and want to drink more. I've always had really good luck with US-05, but the 5 gallons of the same wort I fermented at the same temps and time with Wyeast 1272 does not have the off flavor present. I'm more venting than anything. I know that this happens to everyone at some point. It's kind of motivating though to reexamine my system and brew more often to move past it. Interesting side note, a buddy of mine who got his US05 from the same dealer as I did just wrote me and said he had a really green appley beer he used US05 in as well. Has anyone else had this happen to them? I'm sure it was my process somewhere, but the coincidence made me wonder.C

[MtnBrewer]

Some yeasts tend to throw more acetaldehyde but I've also learned that it can be reduced by the yeast if given an extended primary (sorta like a d-rest). I've never known that yeast to be a big offender but maybe if the primary was too short the yeast didn't have time to reduce it. Just speculating.2007 is notorious for acetaldehyde but the main reason that Budweiser has such a strong apple taste is that the beechwood chips take the yeast out before they have a chance to reduce the acetaldehyde.

[Humperdink]

Some yeasts tend to throw more acetaldehyde but I've also learned that it can be reduced by the yeast if given an extended primary (sorta like a d-rest). I've never known that yeast to be a big offender but maybe if the primary was too short the yeast didn't have time to reduce it. Just speculating.2007 is notorious for acetaldehyde but the main reason that Budweiser has such a strong apple taste is that the beechwood chips take the yeast out before they have a chance to reduce the acetaldehyde.

That makes sense about budweiser. A little more info on that particular brew schedule, the primary was from 62-66 and lasted over three weeks in primary. The krausen had fallen and the FG was 1.011. That's actually a little warmer than I usually ferment with this yeast. It never did get above 66 though.I'm with you on a short primary being a possible cause, but I don't consider 3 weeks to be short for this yeast especially. Like I said, it's kind of a one off since I haven't had this happen before, even at colder temps. I've run this yeast at 55-57 before without this happening.

[strangebrewer]

That makes sense about budweiser. A little more info on that particular brew schedule, the primary was from 62-66 and lasted over three weeks in primary. The krausen had fallen and the FG was 1.011. That's actually a little warmer than I usually ferment with this yeast. It never did get above 66 though.

Interesting, I've never had that yeast do that either. Is it now in a keg at serving temp or is it room temp? How long has it been since you brewed it?

[Humperdink]

Interesting, I've never had that yeast do that either. Is it now in a keg at serving temp or is it room temp? How long has it been since you brewed it?

it's now in the keg and serving out. the offending flavor comes out more as the beer warms up. I believe I brewed it 6 weeks ago. In the keg for almost 3 weeks cooling and carbing. I did hit it with gelatin.My solution to this problem so far is to have a few other beers before I crack into that keg. By that point I'm not as offended by the off flavor.

[MtnBrewer]

I'm with you on a short primary being a possible cause, but I don't consider 3 weeks to be short for this yeast especially.

I certainly agree. Like I said, I was just throwing that info out there fwiw. The only other thing I could suggest is a bad batch of yeast or maybe a contamination.

[Humperdink]

I certainly agree. Like I said, I was just throwing that info out there fwiw. The only other thing I could suggest is a bad batch of yeast or maybe a contamination.

What critter throws acetaldehyde? I'm thinking this may well be the culprit, though it would be my first detectable infection. This has me going back and reexamining all of my processes.

[MtnBrewer]

What critter throws acetaldehyde? I'm thinking this may well be the culprit, though it would be my first detectable infection. This has me going back and reexamining all of my processes.

Yeast.

[Humperdink]

Yeast.

Touche.So lacto, pedio etc don't throw this? It's a saccaromyces specific compound? I believe it's a precursor of alcohol correct, an intermediate step in its production?ETA:Engrish fail

Edited by chriscose, 16 December 2009 - 11:28 AM.

[Kremer]

cider?

[Big Nake]

Chris: What kind of beer was it? I only ask because I wonder if the style was light, maybe the apple is coming through more than it would on say, a pale ale or something. Also, if it was a lighter beer, maybe you could add a lemon or lime to the beer and mask the flavor a little. I realize this is not highly accepted by homebrewers, especially during the Holidays, but I'mjust thinking out loud. I have also used fruit extract (from a dropper... into the glass) to help make marginal beers more drinkable. I have had this happen to me with various strains of lager yeast and I usually steer clear of strains that say that they produce "a slight apple fruitiness". But I guess I expect some weird things to happen occasionally with lager yeast because it's a little trickier to use. I would never expect something like this from US-05. This is supposed to be an easy-to-use ale yeast that consistently produces good ale. But I have to say that the few times I used this yeast, I was a little disappointed by the profile of the beer. It's a bit flat & bland... nothing really interesting in the yeast's contribution to the beer.

[Humperdink]

Chris: What kind of beer was it? I only ask because I wonder if the style was light, maybe the apple is coming through more than it would on say, a pale ale or something. Also, if it was a lighter beer, maybe you could add a lemon or lime to the beer and mask the flavor a little. I realize this is not highly accepted by homebrewers, especially during the Holidays, but I'mjust thinking out loud. I have also used fruit extract (from a dropper... into the glass) to help make marginal beers more drinkable. I have had this happen to me with various strains of lager yeast and I usually steer clear of strains that say that they produce "a slight apple fruitiness". But I guess I expect some weird things to happen occasionally with lager yeast because it's a little trickier to use. I would never expect something like this from US-05. This is supposed to be an easy-to-use ale yeast that consistently produces good ale. But I have to say that the few times I used this yeast, I was a little disappointed by the profile of the beer. It's a bit flat & bland... nothing really interesting in the yeast's contribution to the beer.

It's teh other 5 gallons of blonde ale from the one pictured in the precious brews thread. I may just dry hop it Not bad ideas Ken. Thanks for your input.

[japh]

US-05 is my 'house yeast' and I've never gotten any apple-flavor out of it (even in my ordinary bitter).

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

What critter throws acetaldehyde? I'm thinking this may well be the culprit, though it would be my first detectable infection. This has me going back and reexamining all of my processes.

From the BJCP study guide:AcetaldehydeThis compound has the taste and aroma of fresh-cut green apples, and has also been compared to grass,green leaves and latex paint. It is normally reduced to ethanol by yeast during the secondaryfermentation, but oxidation of the finished beer may reverse this process, converting ethanol toacetaldehyde. Elevated levels are generally present in green beer or if the beer is prematurely removedfrom the yeast. It can also be a product of bacterial spoilage by Zymomonas or Acetobacter.Background levels of acetaldehyde can be tasted in Budweiser due to the use of beechwood chips todrop the yeast before it can be reduced to ethanol.This can also be the result of inadequate wort oxygenation, though the resultant yeast byproducts arenormally metabolic intermediates they can remain after fermentation in some cases.So it can be an infection other than yeast. Or lack of O2. How do you oxygenate? I remember reading somewhere that bubbling co2 through the finished beer can help strip out the Acetaldehyde, but I have no way of substantiating that. Anyone see something similar?

[Humperdink]

From the BJCP study guide:So it can be an infection other than yeast. Or lack of O2. How do you oxygenate?

Nothing special on this batch since it's a medium gravity ale, I just have it drop in from the top of the carboy and try to make as much splashing as possible. I has a foam head on the beer all the way to the top of the carboy. I usually only hook up the aquarium pump for hybrids and lagers. Never had this happen before, but I'm definitely open to any possibilities. That's crazy that ethanol can be converted back to acetaldehyde in the presence of O2. Learn something new every day! Thanks CWG.

[Big Nake]

It's teh other 5 gallons of blonde ale from the one pictured in the precious brews thread. I may just dry hop it Not bad ideas Ken. Thanks for your input.

I was also going to suggest dry hopping it. I had a beer that was fine (not funky-tasting), but it was very boring and probably underhopped. I dropped a muslin bag filled with sanitized marbles and an ounce of Sterling pellets into the keg and in transformed the beer. Not sure if it will mask the apple profile, but worth a try, IMO. Cheers.

[DaBearSox]

1010 gave me the worst Green Apple ever...never understood it either...even after like 6 months in the bottle it still had it...i prob wont be using the for an american wheat anytime soon.

[MtnBrewer]

Touche.So lacto, pedio etc don't throw this? It's a saccaromyces specific compound? I believe it's a precursor of alcohol correct, an intermediate step in its production?ETA:Engrish fail

I think Acetobacter can produce some too but you'd be getting vinegar flavors in that case.

[3rd party JKor]

Appletinis!!!

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

I think Acetobacter can produce some too but you'd be getting vinegar flavors in that case.

Doesn't Acetobacter need o2 to produce vinegar? If he picked up the Acetobacter in the keg purged with co2, it may produce little to no acetic acid.