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120v 2200w element in a RIMS


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#1 BlKtRe

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Posted 08 January 2020 - 01:34 PM

Im wanting to upgrade my RIMS element to SS. When I originally built my RIMS I had a bunch of 240v stuff lying around so to save money my RIMS is a 240v. Performance is pretty really good. So I decided to go ahead and switch out my DIN breaker to a 120v 20 amp and get a 120v 2200w SS element. Those of you running this spec on a RIMS, how is your ramp times? 


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#2 djinkc

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Posted 08 January 2020 - 04:18 PM

Isn't that pushing it on the breaker size?  I'd think 25A would be better


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#3 BlKtRe

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Posted 08 January 2020 - 04:21 PM

Isn't that pushing it on the breaker size?  I'd think 25A would be better

 

Should pull around 18 amps. I do prefer some head space as you mentioned. If I can find a 25 amp 120v DIN breaker then that would make sense. But I haven't had much luck. 


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#4 HVB

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Posted 08 January 2020 - 04:38 PM

Should pull around 18 amps. I do prefer some head space as you mentioned. If I can find a 25 amp 120v DIN breaker then that would make sense. But I haven't had much luck.


Amazon, $27.
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#5 BlKtRe

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Posted 08 January 2020 - 06:56 PM

Amazon, $27.


Did a quick Amazon search and didn't see any 120v. $27 seems high when I can get a 20amp for $6 off Electric Brew Supply. I will keep looking. Thanks.

Edited by BlKtRe, 08 January 2020 - 07:00 PM.

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#6 HVB

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Posted 08 January 2020 - 07:35 PM

Did a quick Amazon search and didn't see any 120v. $27 seems high when I can get a 20amp for $6 off Electric Brew Supply. I will keep looking. Thanks.


Seems the price is because it is ground fault.

Automation Systems Interconnect
ASI NDB1L-32C-25-120V DIN Rail Mount Ground Fault Circuit Breaker, UL 1053 Ground Fault Sensing, Leakage Current 30 mA, 25 amp, 120V
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#7 SchwanzBrewer

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Posted 08 January 2020 - 08:00 PM

Are you moving to 120 just for stainless? No 240 stainless stuff?
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#8 HVB

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Posted 08 January 2020 - 08:22 PM

Are you moving to 120 just for stainless? No 240 stainless stuff?


There are 240v ss options. Size may be an issue tho.
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#9 BlKtRe

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Posted 08 January 2020 - 09:35 PM

There are 240v ss options. Size may be an issue tho.

 

Not so much size but wattage. I cant find any sub 3000w 240v SS elements. 

 

I don't need a ground fault breaker. I've got enough protection as it is. 


Edited by BlKtRe, 08 January 2020 - 09:38 PM.

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#10 zymot

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Posted 08 January 2020 - 11:21 PM

120 VAC on a 20 amp breaker is code. Rule of thumb is stay under 80% for continuous service. A heating element is a pretty non reactive load, so you should squeeze more than 80%.

To be honest, if you have 220 VAC service available, why go down to 120? Stay with 220 VAC. If 220 is too much power, use a SSR or some other control device.
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#11 LeftyMPfrmDE

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Posted 09 January 2020 - 02:06 AM

120 VAC on a 20 amp breaker is code. Rule of thumb is stay under 80% for continuous service. A heating element is a pretty non reactive load, so you should squeeze more than 80%.

To be honest, if you have 220 VAC service available, why go down to 120? Stay with 220 VAC. If 220 is too much power, use a SSR or some other control device.


I agree with all this.
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#12 djinkc

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Posted 09 January 2020 - 05:55 AM

 

 

I don't need a ground fault breaker. I've got enough protection as it is. 

I'd rather be redundant than dead


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#13 HVB

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Posted 09 January 2020 - 06:09 AM

208v but should be OK in a RIMS application.  https://www.amazon.c...oding=UTF8&th=1

 

Has me thinking too.  my RIMS is 120V/1500W at the moment.  I did run one batch with a 240V/4500W element but I was boiling in the tube and has issues.  I like the idea to move up from the 120V toa  lower wattage 240V element.  


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#14 zymot

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Posted 09 January 2020 - 06:24 AM

Watts are watts. If they come from 120, 208 or 220, all your wort sees is a hot element.

220 and higher watt gives you have options to duty cycle down the power. If you are using 120, and you are comfortable that the element's rating provides more heat than you will ever need, go ahead.
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#15 BlKtRe

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Posted 09 January 2020 - 07:54 AM

Watts are watts. If they come from 120, 208 or 220, all your wort sees is a hot element.

220 and higher watt gives you have options to duty cycle down the power. If you are using 120, and you are comfortable that the element's rating provides more heat than you will ever need, go ahead.

120 VAC on a 20 amp breaker is code. Rule of thumb is stay under 80% for continuous service. A heating element is a pretty non reactive load, so you should squeeze more than 80%.

To be honest, if you have 220 VAC service available, why go down to 120? Stay with 220 VAC. If 220 is too much power, use a SSR or some other control device.

 

Yes, I understand this. I built a 240v 50amp brewery a number of years ago. As HVB quoted below there is such a thing as to much power and the PID will overshoot in a small RIMS tube. 

 

208v but should be OK in a RIMS application.  https://www.amazon.c...oding=UTF8&th=1

 

Has me thinking too.  my RIMS is 120V/1500W at the moment.  I did run one batch with a 240V/4500W element but I was boiling in the tube and has issues.  I like the idea to move up from the 120V toa  lower wattage 240V element.  

 

 

Yes, currently I'm running a 240v something watt. Its a short foldback I had lying around. I've noticed the last few times I've brewed its having issues overshooting a bit. I calibrated it to 150* but its always been difficult to maintain 148* on different styles. Trying to maintain is always a balance of how quickly wort moves thru the RIMS. Its also possible its time to calibrate again. The other issue, if its one at all, whatever coating that was once on the element is now gone. The base and element is pure copper now. Wife and I are probably going to die from cancer now...lol.

 

I don't need another TC fitting, but this one also looks good. I saved the one you linked to and will study it some more. I still want SS tho.

 

B07D7VWPSF/?coliid=I3M62T91RD4K3E&colid=2R2GNZ0S32717&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it


Edited by BlKtRe, 09 January 2020 - 07:55 AM.

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#16 zymot

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Posted 09 January 2020 - 08:09 AM

Yes, I understand this. I built a 240v 50amp brewery a number of years ago. As HVB quoted below there is such a thing as to much power and the PID will overshoot in a small RIMS tube. 

 

It looks like I do not understand how your PID works or the details of how a PID can overshoot. I am not doubting what you are saying. I am short of all the required knowledges.


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#17 BlKtRe

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Posted 09 January 2020 - 08:24 AM

It looks like I do not understand how your PID works or the details of how a PID can overshoot. I am not doubting what you are saying. I am short of all the required knowledges.

 

I don't really now enough how a PID works either. The PID I'm using is a Auber which pretty much everyone uses. There are some factors like how quickly the wort moves thru the RIMS that can have an effect on temps as well. 


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#18 BlKtRe

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Posted 09 January 2020 - 08:32 AM

208v but should be OK in a RIMS application.  https://www.amazon.c...oding=UTF8&th=1

 

 

 

So Im reading that a 208v element can rated lower than the supply voltage will cause the element to carry a higher current than it is intended to carry. This will eventually result in damage. Thoughts.....


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#19 zymot

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Posted 09 January 2020 - 08:37 AM

I don't really now enough how a PID works either. The PID I'm using is a Auber which pretty much everyone uses. There are some factors like how quickly the wort moves thru the RIMS that can have an effect on temps as well. 

I would expect a PID to throttle the duty cycle up and down as required.

 

Example:

 

Lower temp? on 1 sec/off 1 sec, on 1 sec/off 1 sec, on 1 sec/off 1 sec (half power)

 

Too hot? on  1 sec/off 2 sec, on 1 sec/off 2 sec, on 1 sec/off 2 sec (third power)

 

Still to hot? on 1 sec/off 3 sec, on 1 sec/off 3 sec, on 1 sec/off 3 sec (quarter power)

 

I do not know exactly what the time intervals are.


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#20 BlKtRe

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Posted 09 January 2020 - 08:50 AM

I would expect a PID to throttle the duty cycle up and down as required.

 

Example:

 

Lower temp? on 1 sec/off 1 sec, on 1 sec/off 1 sec, on 1 sec/off 1 sec (half power)

 

Too hot? on  1 sec/off 2 sec, on 1 sec/off 2 sec, on 1 sec/off 2 sec (third power)

 

Still to hot? on 1 sec/off 3 sec, on 1 sec/off 3 sec, on 1 sec/off 3 sec (quarter power)

 

I do not know exactly what the time intervals are.

 

 

Correct. Not sure of the numbers either but that is how its working in my system. What Im seeing is the PID wont start cutting power soon enough and it will overshoot. Wort speed and calibration and maybe even a element starting to go bad could all be culprits. So getting a new element and re-calibrating seems to be the right thing to do.  


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