7 replies to this topic

[Jimmy James]

Greetings fellow promash users and decoction mashers. I am in the midst of my initial triple decoction using Promash settings to determine the amount of thick mash to pull. So far I overshot my first step from acid to protein (100 to 130) and undershot my second decoction step up to 154, hitting 145 instead. For Promash I used the "thick" mash setting. This batch is 21 lbs of grain, and I doughed in with 30 quarts. The numbers from Promash are below. I think for the 1st decoction I overshot by about 10 degrees because I was pulling too much volume and I also topped up with a quart after the sacch rest of the decoction to allow for boil-off, which maybe Promash already compensates for. At any rate, for the second decoction I stuck to the numbers from Promash exactly and undershot by 10 degrees.Would love some tips if anyone has any advice more specific than just getting used to my system. Fortunately I had ice and boiling water at hand so I was able to adjust to temp, but in the future I'd like to be confident I can hit the numbers the first time. Also, one question is does the time for which you boil the decoction impact the temperature when you add it back into the mash tun? Here's the output from Promash:04-12-2009 Koelsch - GB StyleA ProMash Brewing Session Report--------------------------------Recipe Specifics----------------Batch Size (Gal): 11.00 Wort Size (Gal): 11.00Total Grain (Lbs): 21.00Anticipated OG: 1.055 Plato: 13.46Anticipated SRM: 6.4Anticipated IBU: 26.9Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %Wort Boil Time: 60 MinutesActual OG: 1.055 Plato: 13.46Actual FG: 1.012 Plato: 3.07Alc by Weight: 4.38 by Volume: 5.61 From Measured Gravities.ADF: 77.2 RDF 64.3 Apparent & Real Degree of Fermentation.Actual Mash System Efficiency: 75 %Anticipated Points From Mash: 54.55Actual Points From Mash: 54.55Grain/Extract/Sugar % Amount Name Origin Potential SRM----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4.8 1.00 lbs. White Wheat Belgium 1.040 3 95.2 20.00 lbs. Koelsch Malt Germany 1.038 5Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.Hops Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3.00 oz. Hallertauer Mittelfruh Whole 4.50 26.9 60 min.Yeast-----White Labs WLP029 German Ale/KolschMash Schedule-------------Mash Name: Koelsch TripleTotal Grain Lbs: 21.00Total Water Qts: 30.00 - Before Additional InfusionsTotal Water Gal: 7.50 - Before Additional InfusionsTun Thermal Mass: 0.00Grain Temp: 69 F Step Rest Start Stop Heat Infuse Infuse InfuseStep Name Time Time Temp Temp Type Temp Amount Ratio---------------------------------------------------------------------------------Dough In 5 30 100 100 Infuse 104 30.00 1.43Protein Rest 15 30 130 130 Decoc 212 10.50 0.65 (Decoc Thickness)Saccharification R 15 30 154 157 Decoc 212 11.48 0.65 (Decoc Thickness)Mash Out 15 20 168 168 Decoc 212 7.84 0.65 (Decoc Thickness)Total Water Qts: 30.00 - After Additional InfusionsTotal Water Gal: 7.50 - After Additional InfusionsTotal Mash Volume Gal: 9.18 - After Additional InfusionsAll temperature measurements are degrees Fahrenheit.All infusion amounts are in Quarts.All infusion ratios are Quarts/Lbs.Step Time for Decoction Steps represent how far back in time the Decoction was pulled.Infusion amounts for Decoction Steps represent the amount pulled for the Decoction.Infusion ratios for Decoction Steps represent the Decoction Thickness.

[MtnBrewer]

Looks like you hit your protein rest right on the number but were short on the sacc. rest. I always have had the same problem, which is why I don't do decoctions anymore. How are you pulling your decoction? Is it really .65 qt./lb.? I've found that starting with a pretty thick mash makes it easier to get from one step to the next (less thermal mass). 1.4 is higher than I would recommend. I've had better luck with 1.0 - 1.2. Also, you don't need to do a thick pull for the mash out since conversion has already occurred by that point.

[zymot]

I have done a couple decoctions. Seems to me that there are too many variables and unknowns to do much in the way of calcuations. Decotion is heating up, some of it is grains - some is water (but what ratio), your mash is cooling, you have boil off which changes the decoction volume.The most practical way to do it, as far am concerned, add decotion back into the mash and monitor the increase in temp. When you hit your temp, stop adding decoction and wait until later in the step to add it all.The formula from the guy in the youtube video I linked to in you previous thread works for me.I have an Alt Beer coming up that is goign to get a moderate decoction, the youtube video is what I will use as my guidline.zymot

[Jimmy James]

I had watched that video Zymot and it was definitely helpful. Thanks for that.MTN, I am not certain how thick I was pulling. I have a ladle thing that has a long handle, and I went down pretty deep each time into the mash to get a fairly thick decoction. As far as the Promash settings, I think if you dump the entire decoction back into the mash-tun in one motion and then stir it in the temperatures come out spot on. At least this was the case for my protein rest and mash out. For the sacch rest I ladled the decoction back in and I came out below my desired temp. I think if you're going to gradually add the decoction back you need to pull more than Promash says and use Zymot's technique. I don't necessarily see a problem with just dumping the entire decoction back into the mash-tun though. It was a long day. Not sure I'll be doing these frequently but it was interesting at the least.

[denny]

I have done a couple decoctions. Seems to me that there are too many variables and unknowns to do much in the way of calcuations. Decotion is heating up, some of it is grains - some is water (but what ratio), your mash is cooling, you have boil off which changes the decoction volume.The most practical way to do it, as far am concerned, add decotion back into the mash and monitor the increase in temp. When you hit your temp, stop adding decoction and wait until later in the step to add it all.

I agree. I have never found any equation that could accurately predict temps and amounts for either decoctions or step infusions for my system. I just use more grain or water (depending on what I'm doing) that the equations tell me, stir it in and monitor temp until I hit the temp I want.

[Jimmy James]

Just to update this for posterity...I did a second triple decoction and used Promash to build the mash schedule. It worked out pretty darn good. It seems the key is being accurate with how much you pull. I went with thick decoction and used a ladle, and pulled pretty thick. I also had the ladle graduated so I could see exactly where a quart was. By doing this I was able to infuse in to acid rest, then decoct up to 130 for protein rest and hit it spot on. My target mash temp was 156 for the sacch rest, and I came out about 155. Finally for the mash-out I was targeting 168 and came up a few degree short on that. If there is one decoction in the future where I'll pull more than Promash calculates it will be for the mash-out, but it is working great for the others. For the record I use a 10-gallon rubbermaid mash-tun, and doughed in at 1.3 quarts/lb of grain. I was super careful when measuring the strike water, grain and decoction volumes and I think accuracy is the key to getting these to work with Promash. That and dumping the whole decoction back into the mash fairly quickly once you take it off the heat.

[MtnBrewer]

I've found that a big kitchen strainer is great for pulling thick decoctions. For thin decoctions, like for mash out, you can just open the drain in the mash tun and drain out however much mash liquor you need. Just make sure that you set up ProMash to reflect that.

[denny]

I have done a couple decoctions. Seems to me that there are too many variables and unknowns to do much in the way of calcuations. Decotion is heating up, some of it is grains - some is water (but what ratio), your mash is cooling, you have boil off which changes the decoction volume.The most practical way to do it, as far am concerned, add decotion back into the mash and monitor the increase in temp. When you hit your temp, stop adding decoction and wait until later in the step to add it all.

I agree. I have yet to find any formula or program that can accurately predict temps and volumes for either multiple infusions or decoctions. For decoctions, I pull a lot more than I think I'm going to need and just check the temps as I stir it back in.