67 replies to this topic

[positiveContact]

I guess if imagine hops sitting in 200f it higher wort for 30-45 minutes would be pretty close to a 30 min addition with active chilling. It seems like this would put a lower limit on hop additions boil time wise.

[denny]

 
Denny, when I created this thread, I was hoping you would contribute and offer your advice. Thanks for the advice.
 
There is one that is slightly different between you and me. You put a high value on simplicity and ease of execution. Which is certainly a very rational concept. I would never criticize that train of thought or approach.
 
For me, I do not brew so often that a adding couple extra steps or wasting some time is not a big deal for me. I like the process of being in my work shed, brewing beer and doing stuff. This chilling issue an example. I am not too distracted by some extra steps that might come with a plate chiller or a CFC.
 
You get the same results with the Hydra. Believe me, your endorsement of it's effectiveness is of great value. I expect I will end up purchasing one.  
 

 

Dogma, that is the word for it. I think home brewers confuse optimum (or best practice) with required or must do.

 

For some reason, homebrewers tend to gravitate to more difficult and more complex. I see that homebrewers also like to exaggerate negative outcomes.  If you do fail to follow a best practice, your beer is going to be ruined. And homebrewers (as a group) love complex involved solutions to perceived problems.

 

I might be my own best example. I got wound up over chilling times. I could have drained my kettle into a bucket, snap on the lid, fit with an airlock. and stuck it in my ferment chamber. Wait 12 hours and pitch the yeast the next morning. I wish I though of that Saturday afternoon.

 

I never considered it. Why? I am a homebrewer and that would be too easy.

 

Which is why we wrote a book called Simple Homebrewing.  Advanced, experienced brewers need simple more than beginners do.

 

A story I love to tell (that's in the book) is about my bottling revelation.  For years, when I bottled zI'd put the fermenter on a counter and knell on the floor to bottle.  By the time I was done, I could barely stand up.  Why did I do it that way?  Because in Papazian's NCJOHB that's what they showed people doing.  I didn't even think of anything else.  One day I went to a friend's house to bottle a batch of BW we'd made together.  He put the fermenter on a counter like I did, but then he pulled up 2 chairs.  He sat in one and put the bottles on the other.  MIND BLOWN!

Edited by denny, 09 July 2019 - 10:47 AM.

[jayb151]

It does sound so simple but I would guess within three brewing sessions I would remember 4 days later that I never pitched.

LOL. As long as the fermenter is still sealed, you can still pitch as normal!

 

And as for hop utilization, I don't really have a rule for what I do, but I also only do 30 minute boils as well. So the way I figure it, I do a FWH addition, maybe an addition between 30 and 10 minutes, then I do a flame out addition. By the time I add the last hops, grab the fermenter and hoses, the hops have only sat in the wort for a minute or so plus the time it takes to drain the kettle.

 

I do get some bittering from the FO addition, but it's not too much.

Edited by jayb151, 09 July 2019 - 11:19 AM.

[HVB]

Just to chime in...

I use no cool. I have a homemade copper IC that just sits there now for the same reason you stated. I would worry and coddle the wort till it got down to temp, all the time letting my water go down the drain. Since I moved in to my new house a couple years ago, I just run the boiling hot wort out into my unsanitized corny keg and seal it up. Then I flip it upside down and walk away.I'll come back the next day to check on it and set in in a fridge if need be. 

 

The beers I have been making since moving to this method have been better flavorwise, though it could also be due to me keeping a closer eye on fermentation.

Why do you flip the keg upside down?  Just to sanitize the top?  

[jayb151]

Why do you flip the keg upside down?  Just to sanitize the top?  

 

Yes exactly. I'll flip it over, walk away, then I'll come back like 20 or 30 minutes later (really, whenever I remember). I flip it back over just cause I'm not certain how the seal will hold up once the wort starts cooling and I don't want to spring a leak or something. 

 

Even so, I always hit the keg with a few pounds of CO2 just to make sure it's sealed up, and I always have to release pressure to open the keg, even if it is coming out of the fridge.

[zymot]

Looking at the more beer web site, their buckets are rated Food Grade 180°. My immersion chiller gets the wort down below well 180 very quickly.

 

Sounds like I got a Denny solution. Use the immersion chiller to get below 180° Run off into my sanitized bucket. Snap on a lid, insert an airlock - just in case. Get it my fermentation fridge. Come back, verify it is sitting at pitching temps and pitch away.

[jayb151]

Looking at the more beer web site, their buckets are rated Food Grade 180°. My immersion chiller gets the wort down below well 180 very quickly.

 

Sounds like I got a Denny solution. Use the immersion chiller to get below 180° Run off into my sanitized bucket. Snap on a lid, insert an airlock - just in case. Get it my fermentation fridge. Come back, verify it is sitting at pitching temps and pitch away.

 

That could work, but I would look for a solution that uses something rated to at least boiling, but that's just me.

 

Also, be careful with using a bucket. The first time I did No Cool was in a bucket. I sealed the bucket then went to flip it. The pressure that built in the bucket almost popped the lid. Then the following day the bucket looked like it was going to implode. The pressure changes from the heat are pretty intense!

[positiveContact]

Yeah, when I first heard of no chill the people were using heavy duty plastic bag type things so they could expand and contract freely.

[denny]

Looking at the more beer web site, their buckets are rated Food Grade 180°. My immersion chiller gets the wort down below well 180 very quickly.

 

Sounds like I got a Denny solution. Use the immersion chiller to get below 180° Run off into my sanitized bucket. Snap on a lid, insert an airlock - just in case. Get it my fermentation fridge. Come back, verify it is sitting at pitching temps and pitch away.

 

I wouldn't use an airlock.  Anything in it will get sucked into the fermenter as it cools.

Yeah, when I first heard of no chill the people were using heavy duty plastic bag type things so they could expand and contract freely.

 

Jerry cans....Drew has one.  I'll get a link from him.

[denny]

And here it is....https://www.google.c...ennuMqcZ6JDu93g

[zymot]

I wouldn't use an airlock.  Anything in it will get sucked into the fermenter as it cools.

 

Jerry cans....Drew has one.  I'll get a link from him.

 

Denny, Thank you.

 

I was trying to avoid buying more things, something the size and cost of a new carboy. This is why I liked the bucket solution.

 

Cooling wort will creates of a vacuum. Good point. What if I made something that will function as a airlock, but instead of liquid to act as a barrier, I use foam, as in stopper for an Erlenmeyer flask?

 

https://www.williams...pper-P1010.aspx

 

As long as I ensure the foam cannot get suck into the beer, I should be OK.  Right?

 

 

And here it is....https://www.google.c...ennuMqcZ6JDu93g

 

That is interesting. It is 5 gallons, I will be looking for something like 6 gallons.

 

Plus if I am going to start spending money, I tend to spend money on solutions i like, as in buy a Hydra.

[denny]

Yeah, there are as lot of people who use foam.  I've used cotton balls or paper towels, also.

[zymot]

I admit, I was fighting the notion of replacing my IM with another IM. Time to try something new, like a plate chiller. I was almost sold on a Duda Diesel plate chiller that has slightly better specs than the Hydra. Slightly lower temp, slightly less time, about 25% less than the Hydra.

 

Then I saw a photo of a plate chiller cut as a cross section. Hydra it is.

 

A saw a video by JaDeD, where they explain why the Hydra is different.

 

#1 With an IM, coil length has diminishing returns. After the water has passes through 25 feet of tubing, at that point, that is about as hot the water is going to get. The next 25 feet, the temp difference is minimal and hence minimal heat transfer. IOW 50 feet does not work twice as good as 25 feet.

 

#2 The Hydra is 3 individual 25 foot coils. You get 3 times the heat transfer.in the same period of time.

 

#3 The 3 coils give you added efficiency by effectively making 1 pipe, 3 times the size. Bigger pipes = less resistance. The bonus is 3 coils provide more surface area.

 

#4 In practice, a given temperature of chill water, best you can do is you wort will get about 10 degrees above the water temp. This is true with all chillers. If your ground water is within 10 degrees of pitching temp, you will need to introduce some chilling agent, like ice.

 

Now I have to save my pennies and nickles.

[denny]

I admit, I was fighting the notion of replacing my IM with another IM. Time to try something new, like a plate chiller. I was almost sold on a Duda Diesel plate chiller that has slightly better specs than the Hydra. Slightly lower temp, slightly less time, about 25% less than the Hydra.

 

Then I saw a photo of a plate chiller cut as a cross section. Hydra it is.

 

A saw a video by JaDeD, where they explain why the Hydra is different.

 

#1 With an IM, coil length has diminishing returns. After the water has passes through 25 feet of tubing, at that point, that is about as hot the water is going to get. The next 25 feet, the temp difference is minimal and hence minimal heat transfer. IOW 50 feet does not work twice as good as 25 feet.

 

#2 The Hydra is 3 individual 25 foot coils. You get 3 times the heat transfer.in the same period of time.

 

#3 The 3 coils give you added efficiency by effectively making 1 pipe, 3 times the size. Bigger pipes = less resistance. The bonus is 3 coils provide more surface area.

 

#4 In practice, a given temperature of chill water, best you can do is you wort will get about 10 degrees above the water temp. This is true with all chillers. If your ground water is within 10 degrees of pitching temp, you will need to introduce some chilling agent, like ice.

 

Now I have to save my pennies and nickles.

 

You will be happy you made that decision.  I went from homemade immersion to CFC to plate.  I got sick of cleaning the plate and got a Hydra.  That's where I'm staying.

[Bklmt2000]

A Hydra is on my short list of brewery upgrades. 

 

I get good wort-chilling times out of my 25' IC and a sump pump, but I'm real tempted to spring for a Hydra to pair up with my sump pump.

[porter]

I really want one of the Hydras, too. I had the perfect opportunity to get one (accidentally left the old chiller out in the cold, water froze and perforated the piping) but I didn't discover this until brewday (actually when I turned the hose on l and I didn't really have an option besides paying inflated price for a plain 25 foot copper immersion chiller at LHBS.

But man, that sounds awesome. Our taxes water is typically 55-60 degrees and chilling still takes 45 minutes with frequent stirring. Cutting 40 minutes off of brewday is a huge deal.

Edited by porter, 08 September 2019 - 02:20 PM.

[positiveContact]

even though I don't have a hydra I do have 50' of copper tubing.  the main thing that slows me down is the fact that the wort is not moving unless I stir it with the chiller.

[zymot]

I have put one hand on the input line of the coil, the other hand on the output line so I can monitor temps. Hold the chiller on place you can feel the output side go from hot to cold. Wait a bit, the output side gets pretty close to the same temp as the input. Move the chiller up and down a few inches, the out side warms up. Very quickly.

JaDeD makes the point moving the wort or moving the chiller is important to quick chilling. They say stirring is better than a whirlpool.

I though about what it would take to accomplish this automatically. Then I realized I was using up an awful lot of effort and money and time to avoid stirring a pot for 10 minutes.

At the end of my brew day, I could use an excuse to sit down and stir 6 gallons of beer for ten minutes.

[HVB]

Why would stiring be better than whirlpooling? They do the same thing.

[djinkc]

Year round cold water would be nice..........