35 replies to this topic

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

My primary 1/2 to 2/3 reduction in OG is done in a week.I also pitch a metric buttload of yeast.Start cold, pitch cold, warm up in secondary.Standard German procedure.Have a listen to Dan Gordon show on lagering at TBN.

warm up in secondary? why not just warm it up in the primary vessel? that's what I did last time around for a d-rest.

[Big Nake]

warm up in secondary? why not just warm it up in the primary vessel? that's what I did last time around for a d-rest.

I normally get it closer to 60° at the end of primary for the d-rest also. I thought I read or heard that it would be better to warm up the primary because all of the yeast was in there to clean up. But this is why we discuss all of this... to get other angles.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I normally get it closer to 60° at the end of primary for the d-rest also. I thought I read or heard that it would be better to warm up the primary because all of the yeast was in there to clean up. But this is why we discuss all of this... to get other angles.

well - I wouldn't be surprised if there is enough yeast in secondary as well and maybe it's better not to heat up all of the yeast that's settled out at the bottom of the primary vessel?one thing I always like to do is to cold crash after I transfer though b/c I figure if I introduced any bugs they won't do much if the beer stays chilled.

[Humperdink]

My primary 1/2 to 2/3 reduction in OG is done in a week.I also pitch a metric buttload of yeast.Start cold, pitch cold, warm up in secondary.Standard German procedure.Have a listen to Dan Gordon show on lagering at TBN.

To each their own, I'm definitely not going to say that the Germans have it wrong! I'm just saying that on my system, this method works and produces some great beer. I've listened to all the dan gordon shows, brew strong on lagering etc. I'm well informed on methods, and I've found that this works well for me. Like I said, every person's method and systems are different. I'm glad that works for you.

[Jimmy James]

Ken, I like that you are questioning the conventional wisdom. I started cranking out lagers 3 years ago and have done everything from kettle to glass in one month to six + month beers. The differences are subtle. I will admit that some beers have benefited from time but many have lost the "edge" after just a couple weeks lagering. My theory is that in the "old day" breweries under-pitched their lagers, as a larger cell mass is needed for complete attenuation than with an ale. I also suspect they pitched at higher than optimal temps to encourage some growth. The lagering period evolved to let the beer settle out and to lose the sharp sweetness/twang left over from the fermentation. At least that's my theory, based on a couple of my own (and friends) lagers that finished high but were awesome after 6+ months lagering). Nowadays we pitch the appropriate amount of healthy yeast below fermentation temp so our lagers require neither a d-rest nor a prolonged aging. Just my $0.02 - if you pitch the right amount of yeast at the right temp a short (2 to 4 week) lager is sufficient.

[Big Nake]

I also think some beers reach a peak flavor point sooner that others.

The differences are subtle. I will admit that some beers have benefited from time but many have lost the "edge" after just a couple weeks lagering.

Yeah, these statements make a lot of sense to me. I should also mention that most of my lagers are in the 4.5% to 5.5% range so we're not talking about giant lagers here. I made a nice BoPils on Thursday of this past week (11/5) and it's already just about done. I may only leave it in primary for a week, grab the yeast and make another beer.

[Stout_fan]

warm up in secondary? why not just warm it up in the primary vessel? that's what I did last time around for a d-rest.

One can transfer it and drop out the yeast. Supposedly lower chance of autolysis. But autolysis is really low at lager temps.That's what I did with my Samiclaus last year.This year's O-fest was a 2 week ferment in the same kegs."Secondary" now just refers to raising the temp for week #2 and getting a D-rest out of it as well.It tasted so good and was so easy, This years Samiclaus is following that same plan.Just finished yesterday and lagering at 52°F as we speak.I'll keep you updated.

[Humperdink]

One can transfer it and drop out the yeast. Supposedly lower chance of autolysis. But autolysis is really low at lager temps.That's what I did with my Samiclaus last year.This year's O-fest was a 2 week ferment in the same kegs."Secondary" now just refers to raising the temp for week #2 and getting a D-rest out of it as well.It tasted so good and was so easy, This years Samiclaus is following that same plan.Just finished yesterday and lagering at 52°F as we speak.I'll keep you updated.

Do you always lager at 52?

[Big Nake]

I remember seeing something about lagers aging quicker at higher temps which would suggest that you would have to lager a lager for shorter time if the temp was warmer and longer if the temp was lower. I suppose that all beer ages quicker at warmer temps anyway so I'm shrugging now. I don't suppose that lagering a beer at 55° is doing the same thing as storing it at 35°.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I remember seeing something about lagers aging quicker at higher temps which would suggest that you would have to lager a lager for shorter time if the temp was warmer and longer if the temp was lower. I suppose that all beer ages quicker at warmer temps anyway so I'm shrugging now. I don't suppose that lagering a beer at 55° is doing the same thing as storing it at 35°.

cooler and longer lagering allegedly creates a smoother end product. I can neither confirm nor deny this.

[Humperdink]

I remember seeing something about lagers aging quicker at higher temps which would suggest that you would have to lager a lager for shorter time if the temp was warmer and longer if the temp was lower. I suppose that all beer ages quicker at warmer temps anyway so I'm shrugging now. I don't suppose that lagering a beer at 55° is doing the same thing as storing it at 35°.

Right, my point being more that 52 seems like cold conditioning (think alt and kolsch) as opposed to lagering, since 52 is actually a primary ferment temp for a lager. I think for our purposes lagering is meant to mean close to freezing as possible sometimes sub 32. I think the temperature difference would likely precipitate different particles and result in a different end result. How substantial is subjective.

[Salsgebom]

So what is the long lagering process supposed to achieve? Clearer beers only, or is there some supposed fermentation that's happening? If it's just clearer beers, then you'd think modern science (i.e. gelatin, finings, modified yeasts, etc.) would have eliminated the requirement for lagering.

You got it! Higher grav and high SRM beers benefit from a little aging (up to a month) but there is no calculated reason that a beer with lager yeast should sit longer than an ale as long as it's flocced out and clear.

[boo boo]

I thought that by removing a lot of yeast from the brew from cold crashing/lagering, you start to see the brew go down hill so-to-speak.With the idea that the yeast would keep the brew active in a sense. So in order to stabalize the beer more and extendshelf life, colder tempertures, like around freezing, would be needed to keep the beer longer.Autolysis not being a huge factor due to the cold tempertures that would put the yeast to sleep.